This is the reason I have my family on the Apple ecosystem as much as I hate it and wish I could throw open the doors of Linux and just live in that open source utopia. The number of devices needed and the purposes of those devices grows every year. Apple is mostly idiot proof, it’s the same experience across all devices, and I just do not have to worry as much about “can you help me with…”. I can’t imagine even attempting this with Linux. It would be a nearly full time IT job explaining things and putting out fires.
It sure as hell is not. Not even close. That’s just the marketing that Apple has spent countless millions on propagating. You have no idea how many people over the years have asked me to help them with “simple” things on their Apple devices.
One example is my mother for whom I bought an iPad when she was moving across the country away from me. I thought it would simplify things for her since I couldn’t do visits to fix things when she needed help. After a couple weeks she finally called me to tell she doesn’t like it and can’t figure out anything on it. Swapped it out for an Android tablet and I haven’t helped her once since then (like 5 years ago).
Edit: I haven’t needed to help her, it’s not like I just ignored her from then on /Edit
I’ve also setup multiple people with Linux (including my parents) and I never get tech help calls about it. At most it’s my dad saying he can’t find his bookmarks or he forgot his email password.
So no, the idea that Apple is easier is just a lie everyone was tricked into believing. Most people have used Apple devices for a long time or know someone who has, so the support network is generally there for the small everyday things.
I didn’t have to show my aging parents a single thing on their Linux systems. I just setup their shortcuts for Chrome/Firefox and their documents to the same spot on the desktop as their old Windows install and they just use it.
People use the command line because it’s so much faster and more convenient. But there’s often a gui tool. I use Yast from time to time. It has its uses too. It’s slower though (if you know the syntax).
Is this a joke? The main way most Linux users install software is still via the command line.
I reject the premise that the command line is not user friendly.
With either a GUI or a command line, the first step is going to be “Search the internet for the instructions.”
The second step for the command line option is “ctrl-c, ctrl-v”. The task is now complete.
The GUI option is only superior if it allows the user to skip the “Search for it” step. If it does not, now you are manually searching some arcane hierarchy for the specific location the developer decided to place that option.
The whole point of the GUI is to be more intuitive. If you need to go to the internet to realize how to do the basic stuff, that means your GUI “failed” in its purpose.
That’s still unavoidable for very complex UIs though, but still you measure how good a UI is at helping people accomplish their tasks.
Of course, I normally use a GUI on Linux to control WiFi, so that’s not a particularly good example.
I regularly use shell scripts. I do know how to use the GUI to change file permissions to make them executable. But why would I open a file manager, browse to the file location, right click, select properties, select permissions, and save, instead of just firing off “chmod a+x *.sh”?
The last shell script I made for work automatically concatenated a bunch of PDF documents, applied a watermark, and printed two copies, all using command line utilities. A simple task that would take several minutes for the user to perform with GUI tools.
This was a simple task that was regularly performed by several users. The command line gave the user a simple, consistent method to automate this task. To my way of thinking, that makes the command line more user-friendly: it does not limit the user to the pre-configured operations allowed by the GUI.
Most things I do in command line I am not aware of or would want to do in a GUI on windows tbh. Recursive search for any files that contain a specific string? How do you do that on windows without.
Most people just want Facebook and pornhub, Linux has everything you need.
(Ok it’s kind of a shitty search feature but that’s besides the point.)
Most people just want Facebook and pornhub, Linux has everything you need.
Sure, but don’t confuse covering 90% of what people do with covering 90% of people. It’s like electric car range or browser website compatibility. It might have enough range for 99% of my journeys of work on 99% of websites but that final 1% matters! You can’t just ignore it.
If you did you’d sound like a bit of a tit seeing as roads are just about everywhere in the world. The number of places accessible by train and not road is a rounding error on a rounding error.
Most things are point & click & no one uses CLI in windows, it’s objectively inferior to linux
Also “start & stop a service” ? Does that sound like something an average user deals with in windows ?
Linux does need a control panel, I can admit that but let’s not pretend that Linux’s CLI is tough to learn.
& the CLI is the most effective way of doing things in a pinch, when push comes to shove.
If someone like Pewdiepie (he’s no tech-savvy guy) can use linux, thrn linux has gotten user-friendly enough, although linux can do better & more needs to be done
Ease of installation😅
now you’re straight up lying, linux is by far easier to install with a liveUSB
as for hardware, that’s upto the manufacturers to open up their systems
Thanks for revealing your hatred for linux (I cannot wait for you to call me a linux-cultist, eventhough I admitted that linux can do better)
The bad cli thing is a 2000s view not a 2020s view. PowerShell is better than bash and windows terminal does everything I need both for local PowerShell stuff and remote bash stuff.
There’s a reason why POSIX is still enduring to this day. Microsoft’s penchant for writing short novels for a basic command is not what I would call “better”. And that’s ignoring the fact that PowerShell doesn’t have a fraction of *nix shell capabilities and utilities.
Well, ya. Its terminal interface, I’d expect it to have “basic” capabilities.
also can run standard dotnet libraries.
That’s not exactly a selling point.
What can bash do that PowerShell can’t?
Write succinct and easy to read commands. Interop with all the powerful tools in the Linux ecosystem (which is the point of a shell like bash).
posix lost except insofar as it lives on in the two mainstream highly proprietary OSs.
That’s just simply not true. Three majority of core utils you find on most Linux systems are POSIX compliant or mostly compliant. IIRC all the GNU tools are POSIX.
Who cares about Pewdiepie, the point is how much more “user-friendly” do you want, the excuses never end.
If a stupid guy like pootiepie can handle linuxmint, then people are out of excuses
Plus it’s actually the apps that we’ll need to focus on (& games)
Lack of user-friendlylinesss ? What ? How much more user-friendly can we get ?
Most things are point & click
Most isn’t good enough, it has to be better than Windows. People will pay money to deal with the devil they know rather than learning something new.
People use chromebooks
This is the reason I have my family on the Apple ecosystem as much as I hate it and wish I could throw open the doors of Linux and just live in that open source utopia. The number of devices needed and the purposes of those devices grows every year. Apple is mostly idiot proof, it’s the same experience across all devices, and I just do not have to worry as much about “can you help me with…”. I can’t imagine even attempting this with Linux. It would be a nearly full time IT job explaining things and putting out fires.
It sure as hell is not. Not even close. That’s just the marketing that Apple has spent countless millions on propagating. You have no idea how many people over the years have asked me to help them with “simple” things on their Apple devices.
One example is my mother for whom I bought an iPad when she was moving across the country away from me. I thought it would simplify things for her since I couldn’t do visits to fix things when she needed help. After a couple weeks she finally called me to tell she doesn’t like it and can’t figure out anything on it. Swapped it out for an Android tablet and I haven’t helped her once since then (like 5 years ago).
Edit: I haven’t needed to help her, it’s not like I just ignored her from then on /Edit
I’ve also setup multiple people with Linux (including my parents) and I never get tech help calls about it. At most it’s my dad saying he can’t find his bookmarks or he forgot his email password.
So no, the idea that Apple is easier is just a lie everyone was tricked into believing. Most people have used Apple devices for a long time or know someone who has, so the support network is generally there for the small everyday things.
I didn’t have to show my aging parents a single thing on their Linux systems. I just setup their shortcuts for Chrome/Firefox and their documents to the same spot on the desktop as their old Windows install and they just use it.
I respectfully disagree. We have had different lived experiences but that does not make it a lie or that I was tricked.
Is this a joke? The main way most Linux users install software is still via the command line.
On Windows the command line is an exceptional thing you sometimes have to use for troubleshooting. On Linux it’s the default way everything is done.
For example how do you stop a service on Linux? The top answer just assumes command line.
If I search for how to do it with a GUI I get a 5 year old post explaining that all the GUI attempts are dead.
Now if I search for Windows, I get these instructions (from the AI but they sound like I remember it):
And the top SO question is someone asking specifically how to do it with the command line because the GUI way is so easy and obvious.
That’s just one random example. Not even getting to hardware support, ease of installation, etc.
People use the command line because it’s so much faster and more convenient. But there’s often a gui tool. I use Yast from time to time. It has its uses too. It’s slower though (if you know the syntax).
I reject the premise that the command line is not user friendly.
With either a GUI or a command line, the first step is going to be “Search the internet for the instructions.”
The second step for the command line option is “ctrl-c, ctrl-v”. The task is now complete.
The GUI option is only superior if it allows the user to skip the “Search for it” step. If it does not, now you are manually searching some arcane hierarchy for the specific location the developer decided to place that option.
The whole point of the GUI is to be more intuitive. If you need to go to the internet to realize how to do the basic stuff, that means your GUI “failed” in its purpose.
That’s still unavoidable for very complex UIs though, but still you measure how good a UI is at helping people accomplish their tasks.
Well yeah, and it usually does so it is usually superior. Did you have to Google how to connect to a WiFi network with a GUI? Of course not.
True.
Of course, I normally use a GUI on Linux to control WiFi, so that’s not a particularly good example.
I regularly use shell scripts. I do know how to use the GUI to change file permissions to make them executable. But why would I open a file manager, browse to the file location, right click, select properties, select permissions, and save, instead of just firing off “chmod a+x *.sh”?
The last shell script I made for work automatically concatenated a bunch of PDF documents, applied a watermark, and printed two copies, all using command line utilities. A simple task that would take several minutes for the user to perform with GUI tools.
This was a simple task that was regularly performed by several users. The command line gave the user a simple, consistent method to automate this task. To my way of thinking, that makes the command line more user-friendly: it does not limit the user to the pre-configured operations allowed by the GUI.
Most things I do in command line I am not aware of or would want to do in a GUI on windows tbh. Recursive search for any files that contain a specific string? How do you do that on windows without.
Most people just want Facebook and pornhub, Linux has everything you need.
Open explorer. Type string in the search box.
(Ok it’s kind of a shitty search feature but that’s besides the point.)
Sure, but don’t confuse covering 90% of what people do with covering 90% of people. It’s like electric car range or browser website compatibility. It might have enough range for 99% of my journeys of work on 99% of websites but that final 1% matters! You can’t just ignore it.
My bike is fine for 99% of trips. For the other 1% I can get a train
As long as you’re going somewhere that has trains…
I mean you could say the same thing for ICE/EVs, neither are taking you somewhere that doesn’t have roads.
If you did you’d sound like a bit of a tit seeing as roads are just about everywhere in the world. The number of places accessible by train and not road is a rounding error on a rounding error.
More a combination of train/bike. Almost everywhere I cycle to can’t be driven to.
Most things are point & click & no one uses CLI in windows, it’s objectively inferior to linux
Also “start & stop a service” ? Does that sound like something an average user deals with in windows ?
Linux does need a control panel, I can admit that but let’s not pretend that Linux’s CLI is tough to learn. & the CLI is the most effective way of doing things in a pinch, when push comes to shove.
If someone like Pewdiepie (he’s no tech-savvy guy) can use linux, thrn linux has gotten user-friendly enough, although linux can do better & more needs to be done
Thanks for revealing your hatred for linux (I cannot wait for you to call me a linux-cultist, eventhough I admitted that linux can do better)
The bad cli thing is a 2000s view not a 2020s view. PowerShell is better than bash and windows terminal does everything I need both for local PowerShell stuff and remote bash stuff.
It factually and objectively is not
There’s a reason why POSIX is still enduring to this day. Microsoft’s penchant for writing short novels for a basic command is not what I would call “better”. And that’s ignoring the fact that PowerShell doesn’t have a fraction of *nix shell capabilities and utilities.
Why is it factually and objectively not?
It has standard bash capabilities and also can run standard dotnet libraries. What can bash do that PowerShell can’t?
I’m skipping by the POSIX part because well…posix lost except insofar as it lives on in the two mainstream highly proprietary OSs.
Well, ya. Its terminal interface, I’d expect it to have “basic” capabilities.
That’s not exactly a selling point.
Write succinct and easy to read commands. Interop with all the powerful tools in the Linux ecosystem (which is the point of a shell like bash).
That’s just simply not true. Three majority of core utils you find on most Linux systems are POSIX compliant or mostly compliant. IIRC all the GNU tools are POSIX.
So your factual and objective point is, let me make sure I captured this right, is:
Cool
Who cares about Pewdiepie, the point is how much more “user-friendly” do you want, the excuses never end. If a stupid guy like pootiepie can handle linuxmint, then people are out of excuses
Plus it’s actually the apps that we’ll need to focus on (& games)
??
Clearly you do. You brought him up. And brought him up again.
As a point of argument, I could’ve brought up Luke from LTT as well. You’re something else😅
Most things until anything goes wrong, and then you’re out on your ass on the grub recovery screen