An analysis of the MoH methodology, the exacerbating challenges it faces as the war continues, and estimates from independent researchers and humanitarian organisations.

An analysis of the Gaza MoH methodology, the exacerbating challenges it faces as the war continues, and estimates from independent researchers and humanitarian organisations.

  • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
    526·
    2 months ago

    Theorizing a large number of hypothetical deaths from indirect causes does not prove genocide.

    • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
      213·
      2 months ago

      Oh yeah cause the genocidal intent hasn’t been shown over and over again through the public statements put out there by sitting members of the Israeli government. We must all suffer from collective amnesia.

      • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
        417·
        2 months ago

        Comments by extremists in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic terror attack don’t establish genocidal intent. The actions over the past year clearly aren’t in line with those comments.

        • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
          122·
          2 months ago

          “immediate aftermath”

          They’re still making those comments up to this day. They’re even attending conferences on settling Gaza where expelling Palestinians from their ancestral lands is a commonly discussed and widespread idea, which in turn constitutes ethnic cleansing and in combination with their statements and actions can amount to genocide.

          I won’t discuss why water is wet. The fact that Israel is committing a genocide has been discussed by various UN officials, ICC officials, and experts on genocide. Go argue with them.

          • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
            513·
            2 months ago

            I don’t give a crap what has been “discussed” - the facts clearly show that they aren’t committing genocide. The world knows what an actual genocide looks like.

            • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
              83·
              2 months ago

              “”“the world”“” aka the five countries fueling the genocide with their own separate set of “”“facts”“”

              • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
                511·
                2 months ago

                You missed my point.

                The world knows what genocide looks like because we’ve seen it. And it looks nothing like what is happening in Gaza.

        • ashar@infosec.pubOPEnglish
          51·
          2 months ago

          Sir, your president is quoted in the genocide case (South Africa vs Israel) as one of the inciters to genocide.

          • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
            47·
            2 months ago

            First of all, he’s not my president. I’m not Israeli.

            Second, comments made by certain people in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic terror attack aren’t proof of genocidal intent. He has clarified his position since then.

            Also, have you ever wondered why South Africa of all countries brought the case to the ICJ? Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that they entertained Hamas leaders as visiting dignitaries a month before they submitted the case?

            • ashar@infosec.pubOPEnglish
              21·
              2 months ago

              Also, have you ever wondered why South Africa of all countries brought the case to the ICJ? Probably because they are deeply offended by the Israeli apartheid and they are even more against genocide?

              Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that they entertained Hamas leaders as visiting dignitaries a month before they submitted the case? Um, yes. Why would they not do this?

              Ah, you classify Hamas as a terrorist organisation… Since South Africa regards Hamas to be a resistance movement (and this is the position of most of the world), coordinating with them would be sensible.

              • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
                12·
                2 months ago

                LOL, it is not the position of most of the world that Hamas is a resistance movement. It is only the position of radical Islamists and Western leftist anarchists.

                They are an organization that formed for the purpose of committing genocide and they have been responsible for the barbaric murder of thousands of civilians. They are as terrorist as you can get.

                By the way, there is mounting evidence that support among Gazans for peaceful coexistence with Israel is much higher than previously thought. Evidence, for example, that Hamas has been fudging the numbers on their surveys that show otherwise, recent surveys that show much more positive results, and with the death of Sinwar and damage to Hamas, Gazans are starting to speak out against them. If that is indeed true, it destroys the whole “resistance” and “decolonization” narrative since they wouldn’t actually represent the people for whom they claim to be resisting.

    • ashar@infosec.pubOPEnglish
      133·
      2 months ago

      I wonder why Israel does not allow journalists into Gaza and has killed more than 170 Palestinian journalists?

      • Maalus@lemmy.worldEnglish
        111·
        2 months ago

        Israel doesn’t even allow humanitarian workers to enter Gaza. Which is a warcrime if anyone is counting.

      • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
        111·
        2 months ago

        It’s because Israel must really love the freedom of the press!

    • Keeponstalin@lemmy.worldEnglish
      133·
      2 months ago

      Stop with the genocide denial

      Genocide

      On 26 January 2024, the ICJ said that it was plausible that Israel had breached the Genocide Convention. As an emergency measure, it ordered Israel ensure that its army refrained from genocidal acts against Palestinians.

      The ICJ reported, as part of its decisions in March and May, that the situation in Gaza had deteriorated and that Israel had failed to abide by its order in January.

      So, when we look at the actions taken, the dropping of thousands and thousands of bombs in a couple of days, including phosphorus bombs, as we heard, on one of the most densely populated areas around the world, together with these proclamations of intent, this indeed constitutes genocidal killing, which is the first act, according to the convention, of genocide. And Israel, I must say, is also perpetrating act number two and three — that is, causing serious bodily or mental harm, and creating condition designed to bring about the destruction of the group by cutting off water, food, supply of energy, bombing hospitals, ordering the fast evictions of hospitals, which the World Health Organization has declared to be, quote, “a death sentence.” So, we’re seeing the combination of genocidal acts with special intent. This is indeed a textbook case of genocide.

      More than 800 scholars of international law and genocide have signed a public statement arguing that the Israeli military may be committing genocidal acts against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip as the total siege and relentless airstrikes continue to inflict devastation on the occupied territory.

      An independent United Nations expert warned Monday that “Israel’s genocidal violence risks leaking out of Gaza and into the occupied Palestinian territory as a whole” as Western governments, corporations, and other institutions keep up their support for the Israeli military, which stands accused of grave war crimes in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

      Our documentation encompasses over 500 incitements of violence and genocidal incitement, appearing in the forms of social media posts, television interviews, and official statements from Israeli politicians, army personnel, journalists, and other influential personalities.

      Others: AP News, Time, Reuters, Vox, CBC

      Deliberate Attacks on Civilians

      Israel deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:

      Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.

      • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
        316·
        2 months ago

        Stop with the genocide accusations. It’s offensive to people who have actually suffered genocides.

        • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
          112·
          2 months ago

          My ancestors did. They went through the Holocaust. Israel is committing a genocide.

          • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
            413·
            2 months ago

            It isn’t a genocide just because you say it is.

            And it is nothing like the Holocaust. Not even remotely similar. There is literally nothing, not a single thing, that is similar.

            • EndlessNightmare@reddthat.comEnglish
              71·
              2 months ago

              Similarly, it isn’t not a genocide just because the perpetrators say it isn’t.

              Many experts and scholars do make the claim that this is genocide, and frankly a significant section of the world that doesn’t have a direct vested interest (i.e. not involved) seems to be of the opinion that it is.

              • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
                28·
                2 months ago

                Most people are painfully ignorant about Israel and soak up the propaganda they see on TikTok.

                An accusation of genocide is a pretty serious accusation and the onus is on people who make the accusation to prove the case. You don’t get to call it genocide just because you hate Israel.

                • EndlessNightmare@reddthat.comEnglish
                  51·
                  2 months ago

                  No, but as I said plenty of experts and scholars are calling it one. I believe the ICJ said that it is “plausible,” which I taken to mean that it is inconclusive. Consider that this was many months ago before the more recent escalations.

                  For my own part, I’m neither an expert nor do I have enough reliable, unbiased information to make any sort of assertion on the topic. Reasonably, I can only defer to the experts and try to filter out sources that have a vested interested (in either direction). There are experts saying both yes and no, so it really comes down to who you trust.

                  • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
                    13·
                    2 months ago

                    Newsflash: lots of these “experts” hate Israel. Same reason why they seem single-mindedly focused on such a tiny country with all the other atrocities and human rights abuses happening around the world. Did you know that just yesterday the Turkish military was bombing the Kurds?

                    And no, the ICJ did not rule that it is plausible Israel is committing genocide. This is a popular misconception. The former head of the ICJ clarified the ruling: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919

                    “Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court.”

                    In other words, the court basically said the case can move forward. That’s it.

                    Unfortunately, there is no unbiased information about Israel. Even the so-called experts are biased. Israel is arguably the most divisive country on the planet (which seems odd for such a tiny country of only 9 million citizens) and anybody writing about it does so because they have strong opinions about it.

            • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
              51·
              2 months ago

              Oh yeah, the singularity of the Holocaust. The same kind of thinking that empowers Germany to aide countries in committing all kinds of atrocities all around the world just because those will never be THE Holocaust, so it’s okay.

              • DarthJon@lemmy.worldEnglish
                29·
                2 months ago

                The Holocaust was unique and when someone feels the need to downplay it, that reflects very poorly on them.

                • febra@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  91·
                  2 months ago

                  Every single genocide is unique. Not just the holocaust. Including the one committed in Palestine at the hands of the zionists nowadays.