Yes, stripping somebody of their freedom for using a hand gesture is dystopian. Maybe consider that you thinking otherwise makes you a radical on the other side of the spectrum.
There’s a reason fascism is becoming more popular across the globe and it’s accelerated by these overreactions. It feeds into right wing narratives and pushes people on the fence into becoming radical right more than just letting these idiots babble their bullshit and be seen for the fools they are.
Sorry, are you really saying that a Nazi salute is a simple gesture and not overt hate speech against racialized groups? That a Nazi rally in a public place is totally cool and a reasonable expression of political ideology in a democratic society?
That is not a centrist position, it’s a pro-Nazi position. Nazis are not acceptable in public. If a Nazi wants to salute up and down the street, they should be prepared for people to take it as it is (an act of hate speech). In some countries that’s not a crime, but it sure is in my country and, soon, Australia too.
I’m not disagreeing that a Nazi salute is hate speech. Im disagreeing that it’s a sensible course of action to give the government the power to put a human being in a cage for doing it.
Using racial slurs is also hate speech, should a person be imprisoned for using the n-word?
Where it becomes punishable via government intervention to me should be a direct threat of violence on a group of people or call to action to do so.
I’m trying to comprehend what the intended outcome of this type of punishment is anyway. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?
I think that this is shortsighted. Imagine a scenario in which a person might use a Nazi salute in public: it is unlikely that it would be used by a single person just out doing their normal routine. Consider the recent context of Elon Musk, who was at a very large political gathering and was expecting people to respond in kind with their own salutes.
Do you want more visible Nazis? They show up when you summon them. They don’t go away when you outlaw their symbols, but they do find it less appealing to promote themselves online or have rallies to recruit more would-be Nazis. I understand your hesitance to let the state do these things, it’s a large part of the reason why I don’t believe in capital punishment. But if the state doesn’t have the power to stop this peacefully, the next step (no matter what “side” is doing it) is violence.
The comparison to saying slurs is just not equivalent whatsoever.
The appropriate comparison is to hate speech – speech which is never tolerable. The kinds of things I wouldn’t say in this comment. Some racial slurs might qualify, in my opinion, but it would be particular phrases using them and not necessarily the slur itself. The N word is obviously not hate speech when certain people say it, otherwise lots of rap music would be illegal. But there are certainly hate speech phrases that use it that are just as bad as a Nazi salute.
Freedom of speech, like any tolerance, needs to have limits and this is a very reasonable one.
Punishing Nazis for attempting to rally support from the wider public is dystopian? I definitely don’t want to live in your perfect society.
Yes, stripping somebody of their freedom for using a hand gesture is dystopian. Maybe consider that you thinking otherwise makes you a radical on the other side of the spectrum.
There’s a reason fascism is becoming more popular across the globe and it’s accelerated by these overreactions. It feeds into right wing narratives and pushes people on the fence into becoming radical right more than just letting these idiots babble their bullshit and be seen for the fools they are.
Sorry, are you really saying that a Nazi salute is a simple gesture and not overt hate speech against racialized groups? That a Nazi rally in a public place is totally cool and a reasonable expression of political ideology in a democratic society?
That is not a centrist position, it’s a pro-Nazi position. Nazis are not acceptable in public. If a Nazi wants to salute up and down the street, they should be prepared for people to take it as it is (an act of hate speech). In some countries that’s not a crime, but it sure is in my country and, soon, Australia too.
I’m not disagreeing that a Nazi salute is hate speech. Im disagreeing that it’s a sensible course of action to give the government the power to put a human being in a cage for doing it.
Using racial slurs is also hate speech, should a person be imprisoned for using the n-word?
Where it becomes punishable via government intervention to me should be a direct threat of violence on a group of people or call to action to do so.
I’m trying to comprehend what the intended outcome of this type of punishment is anyway. Out of sight, out of mind I guess?
I think that this is shortsighted. Imagine a scenario in which a person might use a Nazi salute in public: it is unlikely that it would be used by a single person just out doing their normal routine. Consider the recent context of Elon Musk, who was at a very large political gathering and was expecting people to respond in kind with their own salutes.
Do you want more visible Nazis? They show up when you summon them. They don’t go away when you outlaw their symbols, but they do find it less appealing to promote themselves online or have rallies to recruit more would-be Nazis. I understand your hesitance to let the state do these things, it’s a large part of the reason why I don’t believe in capital punishment. But if the state doesn’t have the power to stop this peacefully, the next step (no matter what “side” is doing it) is violence.
The comparison to saying slurs is just not equivalent whatsoever.
The appropriate comparison is to hate speech – speech which is never tolerable. The kinds of things I wouldn’t say in this comment. Some racial slurs might qualify, in my opinion, but it would be particular phrases using them and not necessarily the slur itself. The N word is obviously not hate speech when certain people say it, otherwise lots of rap music would be illegal. But there are certainly hate speech phrases that use it that are just as bad as a Nazi salute.
Freedom of speech, like any tolerance, needs to have limits and this is a very reasonable one.