Hi everyone. Probably not everyone knows but EU has CLOUD Act analogue too - it has a name “e-evidence - cross border access”. so this is a description of framework from the official site - “create a European Production Order: this will allow a judicial authority in one Member State to obtain electronic evidence (such as emails, text or messages in apps, as well as information to identify a perpetrator as a first step) directly from a service provider or its legal representative in another Member State, which will be obliged to respond within 10 days, and within 8 hours in cases of emergency (compared to up to 120 days for the existing European Investigation Order or an average of 10 months for a Mutual Legal Assistance procedure);”

basically it means that the national authorities of the country where companies are registered no longer has juducial control over law protection of their companies - so for example if extreme right government of Poland will be dissappointed with your post on Mastodon about Pegasus surveillance used by them against political journalists by new Framework they will issue juicial order to obtain your mastodon account details, ip, email etc and will electronically request your mastodon provider (which reside for example in Belgium) to give this data to them withis 8 hours or 10 days (without possibility to make appelation) basically overriding national courts of country of registration of the provider.

Do you believe that EU goverment respect right to privacy and national souvereginity as a fundamental right?

  • iii@mander.xyz
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    10 hours ago

    National sovereignty is in contrast with the concept of an EU Union. The EU had been constantly eliminating barriers and differences for the past few decades

    It was supposed to be a trade union. But like any group in power, they want more and more?

    It’s weird that things related to trade, like unifying the train network, isn’t happening. But they do spend a lot of time and effort meddling with people’s private life.

    • JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml
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      10 hours ago

      It was supposed to be a trade union. But like any group in power, they want more and more?

      It was supposed to be an alliance to prevent further wars in Europe and it’s becoming a political union. What’s wrong with that?

      It’s weird that things related to trade, like unifying the train network, isn’t happening.

      You missed something. Check this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_Transport_Network or this https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-modes/rail_en

      But they do spend a lot of time and effort meddling with people’s private life.

      Historically cross-border investigations have been difficult making it easier to get away with several crimes, especially fiscal and financial frauds. Improving the exchange of information is trying to solve that.

      Is it possible that the Polish government investigates your anti-government post on a Belgian server? Maybe… although you are probably overestimating how much a government cares about criticism on Internet. Consider though that EU rules also aim to guarantee civil liberties against authoritarian governments. Things are not perfect (see Hungarian crackdown on lgbt), but we are getting there (see Italy under investigation for spying on journalists).

      • iii@mander.xyz
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        9 hours ago

        It was supposed to be an alliance to prevent further wars in Europe

        That’s weird, as the precursors “European coal and steel community”, “european economic community” are clearly economic alliances.

        You missed something.

        So did you (1)

        Historically cross-border investigations

        The answer should not be to bypass judicial prudence. Yet that’s what they’ve chosen.

        And that’s but one example. The insistence of the unelected EU commission to again and again put chatcontrol for a vote, despite it being unpopular, is another example.

        The CRA act is another: basically killing independen softwarw development.

        although you are probably overestimating

        I think you probably grew up in western EU? Those of us that did live under a autoritarian regime, in my case DDR, know the lenghts they will go to to supress people who’s thoughts they deem bad.

        One of the things that’s most difficult to communicate is this: all the freedom surpressing tools that are being build today, which you believe will be used solely against “the bad people”, will be used against you. For your own good.

        What the EU needs is more direct democracy, not the charade that is parliament/commission, but sadly it’s going in the opposite direction.

        • JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml
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          9 hours ago

          the precursors “European coal and steel community”, “european economic community” are clearly economic alliances.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuman_Declaration

          unelected EU commission

          The EU Commission is the executive branch and it’s approved by the parliament. You should check the basics.

          all the freedom surpressing tools that are being build today, which you believe will be used solely against “the bad people”, will be used against you.

          You basically say that we should stop producing knives because someone could use them against people.

          In this specific case, I don’t see why in a union the location of a person or a company should have any influence on how the law operates. By the way, these laws also work the other way around in favor of the weaks. Imagine if you wanted to sue a guy protected by his government that made it difficult to collect proofs.

          What the EU needs is more direct democracy, not the charade that is parliament/commission, but sadly it’s going in the opposite direction.

          It’s a nice idea on paper, but I doubt that it would work. The truth is that the vast majority of people fail to understand the basic functioning of the institutions, not to mention how they easily fall for misinformation and conspirationism due to a lack of critical sense and knowledge. It’s a different discussion though.

          • iii@mander.xyz
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            7 hours ago

            It’s a nice idea on paper, but I doubt that it would work. The truth is that the vast majority of people fail to understand the basic functioning of the institutions

            People who dislike democracy tend to like the EU indeed. I don’t think it’s a different discussion. I think it’s the philosophical core of this issue.

            I feel like you and I are in completely different camps in that regard, as you feel the basis of society should be hierarchical and control. This explains why some appreciate less judiciary oversight on government, less freedom for individuals.

            Others think the basis of society should be cooperation, appreciation of individuals, freedom both for and from others.

            For the people who prefer domination and control I can only advise empathy. It won’t be you who controls others. So try to feel what it’s like to not be regarded as a person that deserves freedom and agency. People are more than an entry in a database.

            The EU Commission is the executive branch and it’s approved by the parliament. You should check the basics.

            Exactly, it should be the executive branch! It makes no sense that the executive branch proposes laws! And it makes no sense that a law-making part of government is not up for election. This is one of the least democratic institutes that dares to call itself a democracy.

            Most legislation needs to be proposed by the European Commission and approved by the Council of the European Union and European Parliament to become law (1)

            You basically say that we should stop producing knives because someone could use them against people.

            Where the analogy doesn’t work is that knives already exist. A better analogy would be: don’t build novel weapons of mass destruction that are pointed at your own populace.

            why in a union the location of a person or a company should have any influence on how the law operates.

            Brings us back to our core philosophical difference: cooperation vs subjugation. A union, to me, is cooperative with everyone’s boundaries respected. A union to you is top down dictating who does what.

            • JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml
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              7 hours ago

              People who dislike democracy tend to like the EU indeed.

              That’s your opinion and it’s not based on facts.

              you feel the basis of society should be hierarchical and control

              No I don’t.

              It makes no sense that the executive branch proposes laws

              I’m afraid that you don’t understand how the executive power works.

              And it makes no sense that they’re not up for election

              You also do not understand the difference between a parliament and a government.

              A union, to me, is cooperative with everyone’s boundaries respected. A union to you is top down dictating who does what.

              You shouldn’t assume what I think, especially when you are wrong.

              What you propose is an alliance where countries maintain their differences, essentially the dissolution of the EU and the return to the Europe of the early 1900. Interestingly that’s the same thing that Putin and Trump hope for. You are free to think it’s better, but I’m not sure you fully understand what that really means.

              • iii@mander.xyz
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                6 hours ago

                You shouldn’t assume what I think, especially when you are wrong.

                If it walk like a duck, and quacks like a duck. Perhaps you should engage in some soul seeking :(

                What you propose is an alliance where countries maintain their differences, essentially the dissolution of the EU and the return to the Europe

                Again, there’s more ways to interact with others than (a) everyone is dictated top down vs (b) dog eat dog.

                What I propose is voluntary democratic cooperation. An improvement upon the current structure with more respect for everyone.

                “In Russia they’re doing it too” is to me insufficient motivation to lessen our democratic basis and individual freedoms.

                I’m afraid that you don’t understand how the executive power works.

                How it should work is a legislative branch to propose laws, a parliament to vote on it, an executive to implement it. The bastardization of the process by the EU is that the executive initiates legislation, and isn’t directly elected.

                That’s why they can repeatedly propose the same unpopular law, without any fear of losing power.

                • JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml
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                  6 hours ago

                  What I propose is voluntary democratic cooperation. That’s all.

                  I propose you to read less anti-EU propaganda. All the initiatives in the EU are made in agreement with the elected EU parliament and are supported by the member states. You should also check how the right of veto works, all the problems for the lack of authority of the EU (contrary to what you say), and what’s the legislative procedure, because you don’t seem to be fully aware of it.

      • cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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        9 hours ago

        It was supposed to be an alliance to prevent further wars in Europe and it’s becoming a political union. What’s wrong with that?

        for that purpose the NATO was created, not EU - it was trade union as the previous commentator said.

      • cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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        9 hours ago

        About if it is possible that goverment is interested - I don’t know if you’re Polish or familiar with the situation in Poland, but currently, a trial is underway in Poland, initiated by the pseudo-liberal opposition, regarding the illegal surveillance of journalists and independent political candidates in the 2019 elections using Pegasus. This surveillance was approved by national Polish courts. If a framework had existed at that time, they might have been able to gather much more compromising evidence on political opponents much faster.

        Regarding your opinion that the government doesn’t crack down on criticism on the internet, it’s worth noting that the Polish Minister of Justice still insists on the maximum criminal punishment for two women who showed a depiction of the Virgin Mary in rainbow colors, as he claims it’s an insult to religion. Since the ruling ultra-right party in Poland is a clearly clerical party with strong ties to Catholicism and has repeatedly used Catholic themes in their speeches, for them, it’s evidently a priority to eradicate dissent in the country. The Minister of Justice’s actions clearly confirm this.

        I also use the term ‘government’ in relation to judicial investigations deliberately, as Poland has been subject to EU sanctions due to the government’s force on the judicial system

        • JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml
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          9 hours ago

          I’ve read about what’s happening in Poland and similar issues exist also in Hungary and Italy where (what a coincidence) far right governments are in charge with their ultra conservative and authoritarian agenda.

          However, I don’t see why the EU should not go ahead with the program.

          If the Poles (or the Hungarians, the Italians,…) elect a fascist government to rule on them, the problem is with the people, not the EU. I completely understand that you may be against that government, but most of the people around you chose it. They may be fools or fascist. Either way you may be in the wrong place. EU comes with the freedom of movement: use it.

          • cookie019@lemmy.dbzer0.comOP
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            8 hours ago

            people around you choose them

            The ancient Romans did not like Christians and therefore one of their favorite entertainments was to gather in amphitheaters and watch as defenseless Christians were thrown into a cage with tigers and torn apart. People received positive emotions, it united the spirit of the nation, and children also had fun. Another example is that after a shipwreck, people on a boat wandered in the ocean for several days and were starving, having no food, they decided that it was better to die alone than to die together and ate a young boy. Then they were rescued. These are real examples of how your utilitarian philosophy is disadvantaged and its shortcomings.

            • JumpyWombat@lemmy.ml
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              8 hours ago

              These are real examples of how your utilitarian philosophy is disadvantaged and its shortcomings.

              It’s 2025. Not only we are no more butchering minorities for fun, but any European is literally one ticket away to move to another country and start a new life. It’s your choice to stay.