#1 is just not being the default for 99% of devices. If someone gets a new computer, why would they go through the effort of installing a new os when the one it comes with works fine? Hell, I bet at least 50% of people in the market for a pc don’t even know what an OS is.
Agreed. Android and chrome os are used happily by 10s of millions without any idea it’s a Linux distro
Which actually means Linux is being successfully adopted by the general public in a similar way to windows as a general use system that doesn’t require a lot of technical knowledge.
Fully customizable distress will never be popular with the general public. They want systems that just do the general stuff and have it work automatically.
I bet if small, cheap netbooks came out running mint or fedora or something people wouldn’t even or know or care that it was Linux.
In middle school I had a USB drive with Linux Mint installed on it which I was using on school PCs. We only used those PCs for internet browsing and office. Not a single soul noticed it wasn’t Windows. Teacher only noticed 2 differences, “You have different version of Office installed here.” and also gave me a note for “Changing wallpaper” which was strictly prohibited for some reason.
which was strictly prohibited
It was probably due to some goober like me changing it to Scarlett Johansson’s bikini pics. I’m sorry.
So… the Steamdeck?
Absolutely. In fact i think everyone is hoping steam os will be the distro to make the big push onto desktop because of the gaming and another just works kind of interface
Indeed, many Netbooks come with a firmware dual boot. Besides the crappy Windows lite edition, there’s a tiny instant-on Linux too. Most people don’t use that, but it’s there.
Indeed, many Netbooks come with a firmware dual boot. Besides the crappy Windows lite edition, there’s a tiny instant-on Linux too. Most people don’t use that, but it’s there.
I bet at least 50% of people in the market for a pc don’t even know what an OS is.
70%*
Of course they know what an OS is. There’s only two of them: Apple and Microsoft.
New user: I have a problem 😊
Everyone:👍
- are you on xorg or wayland?
- pulseaudio or pipewire?
- what WM/DE are you using?
- amd or nvidia?
- what distro?
- systemd?
New user: Nevermind 😮💨
if a new user is using a distro that doesn’t use systemd they fell for a meme
if a new user is using a distro that doesn’t use systemd they fell for a meme
Or they hate fridge art like systemd and are on something like PCLinuxOS or Alpine.
That’s what I mean though, why would a new user be running alpine as a desktop os?
That would be me: My hardware at the time was crap so I couldn’t use the usual mint, ubuntu, etc and I was gonna use debian but I couldn’t find the x86 download button, so after a bunch of messing about with distros like puppy and #!++, I settled on alpine for a bit. I now have decent hardware and use fedora.
Doing tech support, I encountered this attitude. People like that are nearly impossible to help. “Why can’t you just fix it!” The true answer never given is that your problem is probably something stupid you are doing, like trying to make a phone call by physically shoving the phone entirely up your asshole, and until I run through some common problems and ask some questions, I won’t be able to tell you to have your significant other get the salad tongs and pull it out of your rear and then go over “dialing.”
People mostly need to be willing to gather detailed system info with Inxi and share it.
I’ll have you know I get better reception when it’s up my ass!
No. That’s the support job to figure out the problem of the user. It is not the user’s job to figure out the support problems.
I work in support, so I know what I’m talking about. Unfortunately most computer guys are elitist assholes who can’t understand a user doesn’t have their knowledge or even the will to understand why this shitty tech is not working.
Free open source software projects you don’t pay for don’t have paid support. If you talk to a fellow user it IS your job to figure out your problem. if you don’t have the will to understand anything you ought to buy a support contract.
I don’t disagree with you, but to answer OP’s question, I think this right here is the problem. I love Linux for the same reason I love building my own PCs and working on my own car. For most people that don’t want to tinker, though, they’re looking for something that “just works” and can be fixed by someone else when it breaks.
It’s such a privileged attitude, though. One CAN get paid support, but they don’t need it if they’re just a bit patient and willing to follow instructions. If you don’t want to pay, don’t expect someone else to deal with your bullshit.
(I’m not saying this to you, but to anyone who has this attitude.)
It case the subject wasn’t entirely clear in my prior post I agree with you, and that is exactly what I was trying to say. You the user of a foss project, aren’t a customer unless you give someone money. It IS your job to figure out your own issues. If you ask for help from your fellow users and they graciously provide you help then this is a gift you should appreciate. Because the person isn’t an expert on that topic in the employ of the creator, they might not know everything, nor do they have the infinite patience imparted by being paid by the hour to provide you help. They have their own shit to do. Treating them with entitlement and contempt like people treat support will burn these sorts of folks out, and they are far from an infinite resource. If you want a paid support relationship instead of treating the open source community as free help whose time you are entitled to, you ought to actually pay someone to do that job.
Pay for support then. Companies like Canonical and Redhat will be happy to take your money.
At this point, my biggest dream is that these ‘new user’ distros used only Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd and Flatpaks simply to simplify things. Hopefully we’re less than 2024 away from NoVideo Wayland support.
Also as soon as XFCE releases their Wayland support, that soon it’ll become the most famous DE choice of Mint.
What I am really happy is to see how well supported Pipewire already is. Pipewire has never showed any problem in the new installs for me.
The problem with that is most major distros market themselves as “new user” distros to some extent though. Noob-friendly, out-of-the-box, easy, etc are all distro-marketing buzz-words that mean nothing.
You can’t expect them to only use Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd, and Flatpaks because that dream requires every distro to use Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd, and Flatpaks, which will never be reality.
Most distros will probably eventually adopt these tools, but there won’t be a sudden shift. It will be gradual.
Well, for Pipewire it’s the apps which needs to adjust at this point. Only thing missing currently is the Wayland but it’s coming. Making Linux less fragmented (read: confusing), the more new users will give a try.
So … basically Pop!_OS.
That’s what I’m using now, and it’s what I’d recommend for most desktop users. I’ve been using Linux systems on-and-off since before kernel version 1.0: Slackware, then Debian, then Ubuntu, then Mint, then Pop.
(Admittedly, my use cases are pretty simple: a terminal, a browser, Signal, VLC, and Steam.)
Pretty much. Pop is my go-to recommendation for pretty much anyone these days. It’s so well polished and just easy.
This PopOs ?
Yes, that pop os. As luck would have it, Linus installed it during a very brief period where the steam package in their repo was broken. This is not a common occurrence, and I have never heard of it happening before or since.
This whole series triggered me so hard. They went out of their way to test it under the worst possible conditions.
- last at night
- setting a goal with a deadline/time constraints for first run
- not stopping and reading or thinking, just assuming away
- copy paste from google frsit thing that looks vagualy right
- tunnel vission
- not resources like Emily, ensuring they make big mistakes
Then they follow up with hypocrisy of this shit, after going on and on about UI not being right or hard to use for the end user.
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pipewire seems ready for primetime but I’m more dubious about Wayland. For instance KDE appears to still be a bit flaky and sway still works poorly under Nvidia and will never have proper mixed DPI for xwayland apps. Still seems like a tradeoff vs X which doesn’t require a compromise. XFCE is roughly 10% of Mint users. Mint users are unlikely to switch because of wayland support
Systemd
Fridge art. Fuck, they MAYBE have nfsroot working. MAYBE. After a decade of fucking around, when it was available for ages. The number of bags on the side of lennart’s piece of crap, just to reinvent the wheels we had before, is absolutely ridiculous.
and Flatpaks
… break single source of truth for as-built information and current software manifest. This kills validation, which dissolves certainty on consistency, then repeatability. And given the state of the software load exported to management tools is NOT the flatpak source of truth, you now have a false negative on the ‘installation’ of a flatpak resource when checking it via management.
Oh. That needs to be on the interview questions.
Gonna be honest with you I’m an intermediate user and understood jack shit of what you just said. A beginner and average user would have probably been scared off by Linux by this point rewding this.
A beginner and average user would have probably been scared off by Linux by this point rewding this.
Maybe thats what he/she was trying to achieve.
Why don’t you magically have a magic button that magically fixes everything with no effort of my own? That’s stupid, I think I will go on social media and repeatedly tell everyone that Linux is bad actually
So you want them to provide answers by using magic? If you seek support for any software, open source or otherwise, you’ll need to tell them version, build number etc. Why do you think Linux will be any different?
Because people can already barely provide this level of information for a Windows device. Most of these words look like technobabble to non-tech-enthusiasts
Of course the words will be different. They aren’t hard words. And they can be answered very easily. In fact, most forums ask to include an output of something like
inxi -Fazywith every question, thus eliminating the need for all of these things.For more niche problems, people might ask for more specific information. But most of the time, they’ll tell you exactly what to run to get that information.
You know what’s the Windows alternative for this? Most of the time, nothing. You need to reinstall Windows. Mac is similar, except you need to have it replaced. You actually CAN repair Linux. That’s the difference.
3rd party software/hardware. Companies don’t develop for Linux. And Linux developers can’t reverse engineering everything.
Things break in weird ways on Linux due to dependencies. Snap/Flatpak/AppImage has yet to show if it’s enough to fix the issue.
That would depend on a case by case basis. For basic use (I thought this was the point of the post) I never had anything break, software/hardware either works or doesn’t (I always use the stable release of everything).
It breaks. And I cant imagine anyone who wants to spend time fixing it, much less how long it would take tech illiterate people. Cant explain how many times ive gotten some random error downloding a package, and even ill have a hard time finding what tf the cryptic error message means
That and permissions, though they could be lumped into the first point
just use strace!
I remember recently there was something where a fairly low level system dependency was having trouble installing during a system upgrade, but only until partway through the install. It caused chaos on my system that took a good week to resolve. I can’t imagine that 99% of people have the skill or patience to go through that process.
That said, that particular problem may be solved by the new generation of distros that allow for rollback of system changes.
Do you think just restarting with no information would be better? I could understand that cryptic error Message could scare some people, so do you think a “blue screen” and restart would be better for the average person?
If the device can self repair behind the scenes, 100% most users couldnt care less about an error message or having to reboot, as long as not too often and requiring too much input. I can see why linux is excellent for servers requiring little to no downtime though
Linux needs more apps that GUI friendly and easy to use, better support for hardware and upgrades that doesn’t break easily. Should come pre-installed with PC. Most people don’t bother or know how to change OS.
The odd thing about this is that because Linux generally doesn’t come preinstalled (though some sellers do have it), I’ve found the Linux installation process is usually smoother and easier than installing Windows.
I realize it’s extra work, though, which is a barrier for some. Worrying about screwing up their new computer and voiding the warranty is certainly a deterrent.
One funny thing about it is that I bought a pc with linux preinstalled, but reinstalled it anyway, because I don’t trust an installation from the oem.
It made me wonder how, in the windows world, we simply trust the manufacturer with that.
Having worked with preinstalling Windows with a major pc manufacturer, I will say that it is already such a freaking effort that nobody would want to do even more effort to install malware on top.
Notwithstanding so called partner apps… If there’s anything in those, I can’t say.
Linux is the coolest fucking OS, hands down… If you’re a computer nerd. Otherwise it’s inconvenient at the best of times. Many users click around in their OS of choice without fully understanding what they’re doing, myself included. Try this in Linux and you’re in for a really bad time.
Reminds me of a saying I first heard 20+ years ago:
“Unix is user friendly, it’s just selective who it’s friends are”
The second that you have to google the more basic things…you have lost the audience
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If X doesn’t work you’re definitely in for a rough time, that’s a fundamental part of the system.
This is sadly true for so much software, not just Linux but also many Linux application packages and self-hosting packages.
I tried to install Nextcloud yesterday, and failed at three completely different attempts/guides/packages. Same thing happened a year ago. Maybe I’ll try again in a year.
@Maticzpl Tbf my Windows OS makes me perform a bizarre ritual to just get my headphones to connect each time. Windows has as many bugs as Ubuntu at least.
I also have known people that were non technical that had way worse a time getting drivers to work on Windows than on Linux.
Real issue is software support. A lot of the big closed source stuff only wants to run on Windows whereas most open source stuff is fine working on everything.
Preinstalled.
Like, were nerds and we fuck with our computers n stuff. But most people are lucky to know what a power cord is.
Honestly if Linux with a good DE like KDE or Cinnamon was already on their PC at boot they would figure it out. Most people just use a web browser anyways.
I have put my dad on Kubuntu. Don’t like anything *buntu, personally, but I have to admit it’s quite stable and with sane defaults. He hasn’t complained ever since and support calls dropped considerably. He spends most of the time in Firefox anyways, where I’ve added ublock.
The problem with Windows was, he’d occasionally browse the web with Edge by mistake (or because MS forces it down your throat), and as soon as an 80+ y.o. browses the web without ad blocking, getting a virus is just a matter of time.
All this is to say that I agree with the fact that preinstalled is key. I wish that more effort was focused on fewer distros and I feel that so much talent and energies are being lost in marginal projects.
But many people do this for passion and it’s of course their choice to decide where to contribute, or whether to spin up a brand new distro entirely, can’t judge them for that. I’m just observing that those energies could be better used to smoothen some rough edges on more popular distros to make them even more appealing to OEMs and convince them to ship those on their hardware.
I personally dont understand why mass adoption is a goal.
The “challenge” to bring users to Linux is simply making them want to use Linux. There are enough flavours and guides ranging from plug and play that anyone can use to build your own kernel and distro from scratch that anyone can find what they want in Linux… if they want it.
The truth is that for a not insignificant portion of computer users, the OS is a means to an end not a feature. Its “the computer”. A laptop that comes with windows 11 is a windows 11 machine.
If you want the average user to move to Linux, create an desktop environment with the option to look and behave like either windows or Mac, have a software compatibility layer for both that can run at the same time, buy a hardware company and include the distro as default and sell it to the masses at a loss to undercut all other options. Flood all consumer electronics stores with them.
Outside that, its not going to happen and I dont know why people want to make a competition out of it. Linux doesnt suit everyone and it doesnt have to. We see less GUIs as a good thing, id rather dev time from the solo/small dev teams go towards the functionality not making it look pretty. The majority of computer users dont agree with that though, and thats fine. I like being able to add/remove from my OS, most don’t and thats fine too. I like rolling updates, the uproar around windows updates with thousands of youtube videos dedicated to people stopping them indefinitely indicates many others dont. Our semi annual O365 update is currently rolling out at work, and people are freaking out that one of their outlook toolbars moved. Never mind its a 4 second fix to move it back, but can you imagine these people seeking out/installing/configuring/using a new desktop environment?
Its not an elitist thing. Id love more of my friends to use linux, but I cant make them want to use something. It either appeals to them or it doesnt. For most the appeal of a computer is the software it runs, and the OS is just a means for that.
I personally dont understand why mass adoption is a goal.
Oh this one is easy. The higher market share the better software support they get.
And as a secondary bonus, the more people use it the more people contribute to it and make it even better. But mostly this one is just an extension of the first point.
I utterly agree. I don’t get this push to have everyone on Linux. Once you get the majority of users on Linux, the enshittification will begin.
Based on my tests on my family and friends, the main problem is tech support. Most geeks seem to assume other people want the same things than themselves (privacy, freedom, etc). Well, they don’t. They want a computer that just works.
Overall when using Linux, people actually don’t need much tech support, but they need it. My father put it really well by saying: “the best OS is the one of your neighbor.”
I apply few rules:
-
The deal with my family and friends is simple: you want tech support from me ? ok, then I’m going to pick your computer (usually old Lenovo Thinkpads bought on Ebay at ~300€) and I’m going to install Linux on it.
-
I’m not shy. I ask them if they want me to have remote access to their computer. If they accept, I install a Meshcentral agent. Thing is, on other OS, they are already spied on by Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. And most people think “they have nothing to hide”. Therefore why should they worry more about a family member or a friend than some unknown big company ? Fun fact, I’ve been really surprised by how easily people do accept that I keep a remote access on their computer: even people that are not family ! Pretty much everybody has gladly agreed up to now. (and God knows I’ve been really clear that I can access their computer whenever I want).
-
I install the system for them and I make the major updates for them. Therefore, if I have remote access to the system, I pick the distribution I’m the most at ease with (Debian). They just don’t care what actually runs on their computers.
-
When they have a problem, they call me after 8pm. With remote access, most problems are solved in a matter of minutes. Usually, they call me a few times the first days, and then I never hear from them anymore until the next major update.
So far, everybody seems really happy with this deal. And for those wondering, I can see in Meshcentral they really do use those computers :-P
When i told my dad i can install Rustdesk on his computer to do remote support (moved out), he asked me “does that mean you can look at my computer whenever you want?”. I’m really proud of him, he actually listened.
I think people sell themselves short with regards to having undue access to family members’ computers. If they’re willing to give it then you’ve clearly demonstrated that you’re trustworthy and haven’t given them reason to assume you’ll snoop or worse steal from them.
Are there any limitations to Meshcentral? I tried using Team Viewer and a few others when I was supporting family on Windows, and they all wanted to charge me after a while.
Wayland, unless something’s changed since the last time I tried it.
Try Anydesk, it’s very much like Teamviewer in many ways, though it’s not FOSS.
-
- Isn’t pre-installed on well known machines by well known brands.
- Popular applications (whether productivity, creativity, or games) do not work out of the box that people want. It doesn’t matter that alternatives exist, or that you can use things like Wine. If it’s more than just click the icon, it’s too much.
- If things cannot be done purely through touch / the mouse, it is too hard for most people.
If things cannot be done purely through touch / the mouse, it is too hard for most people.
100%. Even as a power-user (understatement) who overwhelmingly prefers keyboard input to control things when I’m “gettin’ stuff done”, I will sometimes miss the general consideration level of Windows’ input handling when it comes to mouse and especially touch. Mouse is pretty damn good these days on Linux, but touch…
Touch is abysmal. A ton of modern laptops have touchscreens, or are actually 2-in-1s that fold into tablets, etc, and the support is just barely there, if at all. I’m not talking about driver support - this is often fairly acceptable. My laptop’s touch and pen interface worked right out of the box… technically. But KDE Plasma 5 with Wayland- an allegedly very modern desktop stack- is not pleasant when I fold into tablet mode.
The sole (seriously, I’ve looked) Wayland on-screen-keyboard, Maliit, is just terrible. No settings of any kind (there is a settings button! it is not wired to anything, it does nothing), no language options, no layout options (the default layout is abysmal and lacks any ‘functional’ keys like arrows, pgup/dn, home/end, delete, F keys, tab, etc), and most egregiously, it resists being manually summoned which is terrible because it does not summon itself at appropriate times. Firefox is invisible to it. KRunner is invisible to it. The application search bar is invisible to it. It will happily pop up when I tap into Konsole, but it’s totally useless as it is completely devoid of vital keys. Touch on Wayland is absolutely pointless.
Of course, there is a diverse ecosystem of virtual keyboards and such on Xorg! However, Xorg performance across all applications is typically abysmal (below 1FPS) if the screen is rotated at all. This is evidently a well known issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.
In the spirit of Open Source Software, and knowing that simply complaining loudly has little benefit for anyone, I have at several times channeled my frustration towards developing a reasonable Wayland virtual keyboard, but it’s a daunting project fraught with serious problems and I have little free-time, so it’s barely left its infancy in my dev folder, and in the meanwhile I reluctantly just flip my keyboard back around on the couch with a sigh, briefly envious of my friend’s extremely-touch-capable Windows 2-in-1.
I echo your frustrations with Maalit. I am running Arch on my Surface Pro 7 and very frequently I have to snap in the keyboard just to get myself out of a situation where touch doesn’t work. Maalit also has this bug where it will push and resize windows as if it was visible even though it is hidden.
Regarding the Firefox issue, it helps if you enable it’s Wayland backend by passing MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 to it. Maalit should properly pop whenever you tap on a text box.
MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1
Thank you - I was already aware of this, actually, but I choose to leave it disabled because when this is set, touchscreen drag-scrolling of webpages breaks and it selects text as though it were a mouse click-drag instead. As it turns out, I barely use Maliit anyway because of its other deficiencies, but I definitely touch-scroll my browser a lot, even in laptop mode. A generally disappointing dilemma!
I also had this problem where touch scrolling on Firefox selects text instead (on ubuntu). It does however work OOTB for me on fedora, so it’s the main distro on that machine.
GNOME has amazing touchscreen gestures, and afaik comes with it’s own virtual keyboard
I have been tempted by GNOME several times, but I disagree with some of their design choices and find them a bit frustrating. I feel that it’s fairly strongly-opinionated software. The benefits, of course, are obvious: internal consistency that leads to a higher quality experience. But, only if you buy-in to some overarching design philosophy. That’s one of the reasons I left Windows! I also have a suite of Kwin scripts that make my life a lot easier, so it’s pretty hard to leave Plasma at this point.
Still, that keyboard has tempted me a lot nonetheless…
Me too. I love the look of Adwaita, but some of their choices I can’t get past, like not having a system tray. I’m really excited for Cosmic, it looks like it will blend the styling of GNOME with much of KDE’s customization!
I agree with the touchscreen thing-- I have one of those foldy-aroundy 2-in-1 laptops, and the only way I’ve been able to get touch to work properly (as in not like a mouse) is gnome wayland. Kde wayland’s fine too, but like you said there’s no included keyboard whereas gnome has one built-in. Also another wayland osk you could try is wvkbd (tho I’ve never used it beyond “hey what’s this”).
While this is true, if someone goes to a shop and buys a “PC”, it will have Windows 100% of the time.
You have to look to get Linux preinstalled on stuff, or pick the choice yourself. People buying PCs aren’t picking Windows, it’s just what comes with them.
Most people buy computers with the OS already installed and would get just as lost trying to install MacOS or Windows.
This is the correct answer. If Linux was pre-installed, most problems would vanish. My Linux computers are far, far more stable than windows once they run.
The pre installation also means the OEM will verify compatibility, a common complaint.
The biggest issue ive had (ive only used ubuntu) is the file management. Disks and file system is a bit different from boyh mac and windows, and i had a hard yime figuring out where and how, etc.
I couldnt figure out how to get my home network to work (so my windows pc could grab files off the linux pc) and such.
I had no issues setting that up, between my mac/windows pcs
I do plan on installing linux for my sons pc which he will then be forced to learn to some degree.
Your issue is probably with Gnome. It’s file manager is shit and the mechanisms for sharing files aren’t obvious.
I think you just made another point why Linux is difficult to adopt to for non-tech people. It takes a level of understanding about how computers work in general, and operating systems specifically, that that majority of people just do not care to have. It’s not that people are too stupid or anything like that. It’s just that the majority of people absolutely do not care what a Desktop Manager is, or why and how it’s different from the OS itself.
Well… people like you and me care because we think it’s interesting. We are the exception. The very thing we love most about Linux is the thing that stops it from general acceptance. It’s too flexible to “Just Work”.
For file sharing over a network between Linux and Windows, the keywords are “samba” and “cifs”. In my experience, that’s variable levels of pain in the ass to set up, but does work once you’ve got it configured. (Sometimes it’s easier to run an sftp server or similar on the Linux machine.)
But yeah, nontrivial.
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