People who condemn Hamas need to reconcile with this:
Those people were once children who were traumatized by occupation. Maybe they saw their parents die. Maybe they saw their siblings die. Maybe it was their uncle or their best friends. Maybe they were buried under rubble for days and barely survived. Maybe they were shot at. Maybe they saw their homes destroyed.
And then they had to just keep living under occupation. Go through checkpoints, live in cramped conditions, ration their own food, and know that their life expectancy is 40.
Those are the people who attacked Israel. Can you even imagine the pain and terror and hate they must feel? Little traumas and humiliations every day of their lives, only differentiated by spikes of severe trauma when the IDF mows the lawn.
I’d have killed myself. These people are incredible for hanging on despite everything. How dare you judge them?
It’s still fair to judge Hamas. Israel’s response is 100% predictable and there’s a good argument that the innocent people getting killed are because of Hama’s actions. The attack on Israel achieved absolutely nothing for Gaza but total destruction and death for Palestinians. They knew this but didn’t care.
I get where you’re coming from but they’ve made their entire situation significantly worse for no gain other than over a thousand dead Israelis.
I honestly have no idea what the answer is for the people of Palestine but randomly murdering Israeli civilians when you know they’re going to go fucking apeshit in response is plain stupid.
This attack might see Netanyahu ousted from the government, has completely collapsed the normalization process with the rest of the Arab States that was close to completion, and has proven that Israel’s infamous defenses are not impenetrable and the settlers are not safe.
Settlers aren’t civilians, and IDF veterans and reservists certainly aren’t civilians.
Honestly, while I understand where your idealism is coming from I just find it extremely frustrating. You have no alternative, you have no solution, but you sneer down your nose at the actually existing struggle for liberation because it’s too ugly and mean for your tastes.
Read history. Every struggle against settler-colonialism has been fought by people condemned as terrorists.
I’d say kids are civilians and they’ve been kidnapped or killed. And I never said the IDF soldiers are civilians.
You’ll judge me for willfully admitting I don’t have a solution, but it’s not my job to have one. I’m just some guy in another country. But I’d rather have this view than supporting an evil government oppressing people or an evil government taking kids hostage.
Yes, it’s terrible when settlers use children as human shields. They should be condemned for bringing children to their settler occupation.
It’s not your job to have a solution, it’s your job to support the actually existing resistance to colonial occupation and to speak up for them against the relentless propaganda campaign to demonize them as baby beheading rapists. By equally condemning both sides you are implicitly siding with the oppressors.
Historically, settler-colonial occupations are usually resolved with violence. Either resolved by the colonized people rising up against their oppressors… or the settlers genociding all of the occupied people until there’s nothing but a few reservations of them left.
And, honestly, I think we have at most a decade before WW3 resets the entire board anyway so…
Wow, a lot of info here. It is very strange to me to personalify groups/states as one.
Anyways, Israel’s treatment of Palestinians are horrible. I can totally understand Hama’s desire to fight back and struggle, however, what it bascially did was to bring the wrath to innocent bystanders. The people of Palestinians are not all Hamas and not all support of them, yet, they all suffered.
Don’t forget a strong dose of propaganda and radicalisation towards violence, along with training in Iran. This wasn’t exactly an emotional outburst from people pushed to the brink, it was a heavily coordinated strike planned months in advance.
This actually makes it all the more horrible, because it’s quite clear from the outside that the strike would not achieve any of their objectives for the Palestinian people. It begs the question: who wanted this to happen, who encouraged them?
Lmfao you’re challenging me to resolve the Israeli/Palestine dispute, one which has gone on for 140 years? That’s an incredibly disengenous way to argue, you’re setting me up to lose unless I’m better than almost every human being that’s tried before.
In any case, I’ll shoot.
Israel is bigger than Palestine in terms of military might - even when you include full support of other Arab nations. Thus, the only way to really overcome them is to garner support from outside. To do this, Palestine needs to show that, as a people, they have more moral integrity than Israel. This is completely undermined by indescriminate strikes into foreign territory or strikes that explicitly target civilians.
Similarly, support for Israel is undermined by their strikes into Palestinian territory. However, they’ve been far more effective at controlling the narrative to prevent losing so much support.
Vietnam was largely undone because people in the US turned against the war - there was no support behind it. The same could probably be argued with other wars. As it stands, many of the actions by Hamas and Palestinian military groups provide plenty of plausible justification for those supporting Israel.
I’m challenging you to give Hamas an alternative. That’s it.
To do this, Palestine needs to show that, as a people, they have more moral integrity than Israel.
Did you forget when Palestinians held peaceful marches and Israeli snipers blew their knees out? It didn’t matter. It never does.
You sound like Ghandi telling the Jews that they should have resisted the Nazis with nonviolence and peaceful demonstration. Grow up.
And do you actually honestly think that support from America or various European countries has anything at all to do with moral integrity? Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq. Did American appetites for conquest and war end because Al Qaeda held peaceful marches and hunger strikes?
Should Ukrainians hold peaceful demonstrations and let themselves be sitting targets for Russian bombs?
What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren’t safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society. They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it. They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.
Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?
Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq.
They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.
What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren’t safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society.
This was poignant timing, yes.
They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it.
This was mostly luck, although there some remote possibility of a wider conspiracy.
They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.
I give 50/50 odds on whether this was coincidence or not. Suffice it to say, the main reason for the timing is almost certainly to do with Netanyahu - who has previously promoted support of Hamas.
Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?
I acknowledge that the strike was incredibly effective, moreso than even the people doing it thought it would be. But I feel like the strike was ultimately more in pursuit of indirect political objectives rather than military objectives. In that sense, it has arguably served Israel more than it has served Palestine - Palestine is under seige, likely to lose land, Netanyahu is still in power and while the polls put Netanyahu down they aren’t driving meaningful change. It could still swing either way though, we won’t know until much later.
They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.
Well a lot of them were “civilian” IDF reservists and veterans, but yes, civilian casualties definitely soured liberal support for Palestinian resistance (and gave the IDF ammo for fake atrocity propaganda, like the nonsense about beheading 40 babies and mass rape and shit like that). I don’t think it’s entirely alienated them from all support, though. I still see a lot of support for Palestine and resistance to Israel’s response, especially in the Global South. This feels different than the psychotic response America had to 9/11, y’know?
It could still swing either way though, we won’t know until much later.
It comes down to how things escalate with the imminent ground invasion. What will Hezbollah do? What will Iran do? What will Jordan do? Egypt? The Taliban government? Hell, what will the big dogs like Saudi Arabia do? We don’t know, but Hamas is politically savvy.
I would hesitate to give Hamas credit for being politically savvy, more than to say that they have backers that instruct them on how to be politically savvy.
The ground invasion is such bullshit though. I really hate how Israel keep making out that they’re “defending themselves”, when they’re clearly not in a defensive posture. The time for defense was 7 October, when it was conspicuously absent. They’re performing a counter-attack, into foreign territory, with only a vague attempt at focusing on military targets.
I wouldn’t give Hamas credit for being politically savvy more than to say that they have backers that instruct them on how to be politically savvy.
Reexamine your prejudices. You might not mean it this way, but this is textbook colonial paternalism - an assumption that the colonized can’t possibly be clever or disciplined or intelligent, that they must have puppet masters that helped them win against the superior occupying Israeli forces. Guerilla fighters in every colonial resistance throughout history have been characterized the exact same way. Angola. Nicaragua. It’s always the same, it’s always some outside puppet master that’s behind every success of the resistance because the guerillas are too uncivilized and backwards to ever possibly achieve any kind of wins on their own or to strategize on the bigger picture.
Hasn’t the strike literally achieved their objectives? Everyone’s talking about them (instead of Ukraine), the Arab world is uniting behind them, and the West is progressively alienating their friends in the Global South.
If Israel had just let things lie, the status quo would have continued and Israel could have kept encroaching on the West Bank and slowly suffocating the Gaza Strip with their blockade. Instead, people are literally turning their backs on the US at the UN, there are massive protests around the world, and the Palestinian struggle is now front and center.
The only way Israel can pull a victory out of this complete and categorical defeat is by annexing the Gaza Strip.
Instead, people are literally turning their backs on the US at the UN, there are massive protests around the world, and the Palestinian struggle is now front and center.
This is all just noise, not meaningful change.
I’m not sure that victory is really the goal here. Frankly, I think the goal is merely to make war, and in turn make money by facilitating it. Always has been.
People who condemn Hamas need to reconcile with this:
Those people were once children who were traumatized by occupation. Maybe they saw their parents die. Maybe they saw their siblings die. Maybe it was their uncle or their best friends. Maybe they were buried under rubble for days and barely survived. Maybe they were shot at. Maybe they saw their homes destroyed.
And then they had to just keep living under occupation. Go through checkpoints, live in cramped conditions, ration their own food, and know that their life expectancy is 40.
Those are the people who attacked Israel. Can you even imagine the pain and terror and hate they must feel? Little traumas and humiliations every day of their lives, only differentiated by spikes of severe trauma when the IDF mows the lawn.
I’d have killed myself. These people are incredible for hanging on despite everything. How dare you judge them?
We create the next villains so we can sell more weapons! long $RTX
It’s still fair to judge Hamas. Israel’s response is 100% predictable and there’s a good argument that the innocent people getting killed are because of Hama’s actions. The attack on Israel achieved absolutely nothing for Gaza but total destruction and death for Palestinians. They knew this but didn’t care.
I get where you’re coming from but they’ve made their entire situation significantly worse for no gain other than over a thousand dead Israelis.
I honestly have no idea what the answer is for the people of Palestine but randomly murdering Israeli civilians when you know they’re going to go fucking apeshit in response is plain stupid.
This attack might see Netanyahu ousted from the government, has completely collapsed the normalization process with the rest of the Arab States that was close to completion, and has proven that Israel’s infamous defenses are not impenetrable and the settlers are not safe.
Read Wretched of the Earth by Fanon.
Removed by mod
Settlers aren’t civilians, and IDF veterans and reservists certainly aren’t civilians.
Honestly, while I understand where your idealism is coming from I just find it extremely frustrating. You have no alternative, you have no solution, but you sneer down your nose at the actually existing struggle for liberation because it’s too ugly and mean for your tastes.
Read history. Every struggle against settler-colonialism has been fought by people condemned as terrorists.
I’d say kids are civilians and they’ve been kidnapped or killed. And I never said the IDF soldiers are civilians.
You’ll judge me for willfully admitting I don’t have a solution, but it’s not my job to have one. I’m just some guy in another country. But I’d rather have this view than supporting an evil government oppressing people or an evil government taking kids hostage.
Yes, it’s terrible when settlers use children as human shields. They should be condemned for bringing children to their settler occupation.
It’s not your job to have a solution, it’s your job to support the actually existing resistance to colonial occupation and to speak up for them against the relentless propaganda campaign to demonize them as baby beheading rapists. By equally condemning both sides you are implicitly siding with the oppressors.
deleted by creator
Historically, settler-colonial occupations are usually resolved with violence. Either resolved by the colonized people rising up against their oppressors… or the settlers genociding all of the occupied people until there’s nothing but a few reservations of them left.
And, honestly, I think we have at most a decade before WW3 resets the entire board anyway so…
deleted by creator
its bleak, yeah, but it always was, this is them still fighting back
deleted by creator
Likud’s not very interested in resolving it nonviolently. Palestinians can’t resolve the conflict peacefully in a unilateral manner.
So committing war crimes is the answer?
Both sides are terrorists, flat-out.
Yes both the USA and Israel agree terrorist states.
war crimes my ass, that only applies to the ebil terrorist people, while israel gets a slap on the wrist for committing a fucking holocaust
Removed by mod
If she didn’t struggle and scream he wouldn’t hit her as hard. Is that what you think?
Huh?
If she (Gaza) didn’t struggle and scream he (Israel) wouldn’t hit her as hard.
You’re essentially blaming Hamas for their own pain. That’s victim blaming.
Israel deserves 100% of the blame because its the violent settler occupation.
Wow, a lot of info here. It is very strange to me to personalify groups/states as one.
Anyways, Israel’s treatment of Palestinians are horrible. I can totally understand Hama’s desire to fight back and struggle, however, what it bascially did was to bring the wrath to innocent bystanders. The people of Palestinians are not all Hamas and not all support of them, yet, they all suffered.
They suffer any way. A few thousand people being killed in air strikes is normal there, regardless of what Hamas does.
Removed by mod
Yup
IDF reservist and veteran settlers aren’t exactly innocent.
I’m more talking about your everyday joe and kids.
The every day Joe’s are also IDF reservists and veterans. Israel has really broad conscription.
As for the kids, settlers shouldn’t be bringing children to their colonial occupation. That’s more on them than the resistance fighters.
Don’t forget a strong dose of propaganda and radicalisation towards violence, along with training in Iran. This wasn’t exactly an emotional outburst from people pushed to the brink, it was a heavily coordinated strike planned months in advance.
This actually makes it all the more horrible, because it’s quite clear from the outside that the strike would not achieve any of their objectives for the Palestinian people. It begs the question: who wanted this to happen, who encouraged them?
You say the strike would not achieve any of their objectives, but I challenge you to name a single alternative that would.
Lmfao you’re challenging me to resolve the Israeli/Palestine dispute, one which has gone on for 140 years? That’s an incredibly disengenous way to argue, you’re setting me up to lose unless I’m better than almost every human being that’s tried before.
In any case, I’ll shoot.
Israel is bigger than Palestine in terms of military might - even when you include full support of other Arab nations. Thus, the only way to really overcome them is to garner support from outside. To do this, Palestine needs to show that, as a people, they have more moral integrity than Israel. This is completely undermined by indescriminate strikes into foreign territory or strikes that explicitly target civilians.
Similarly, support for Israel is undermined by their strikes into Palestinian territory. However, they’ve been far more effective at controlling the narrative to prevent losing so much support.
Vietnam was largely undone because people in the US turned against the war - there was no support behind it. The same could probably be argued with other wars. As it stands, many of the actions by Hamas and Palestinian military groups provide plenty of plausible justification for those supporting Israel.
I’m challenging you to give Hamas an alternative. That’s it.
Did you forget when Palestinians held peaceful marches and Israeli snipers blew their knees out? It didn’t matter. It never does.
You sound like Ghandi telling the Jews that they should have resisted the Nazis with nonviolence and peaceful demonstration. Grow up.
And do you actually honestly think that support from America or various European countries has anything at all to do with moral integrity? Vietnam was undone because they killed and brutalized the invading US soldiers until the American appetite for war turned sour. Afghanistan. Iraq. Did American appetites for conquest and war end because Al Qaeda held peaceful marches and hunger strikes?
Should Ukrainians hold peaceful demonstrations and let themselves be sitting targets for Russian bombs?
What Hamas did was show the Israeli public that they aren’t safe, and they did so at the same time that the Netanyahu regime was facing unprecedented public opposition from within Israeli society. They did so at a time when the US government had no House Speaker or can easily solve it. They did so at a time when the West was occupied with an endless war in Ukraine and brinkmanship with China over Taiwan.
Hamas has actually seriously damaged the occupation with this attack. Will you acknowledge this?
Fair points, you’ve got my upvote.
They killed and brutalized US soldiers. The vast majority of victims on 7 October were civilians.
This was poignant timing, yes.
This was mostly luck, although there some remote possibility of a wider conspiracy.
I give 50/50 odds on whether this was coincidence or not. Suffice it to say, the main reason for the timing is almost certainly to do with Netanyahu - who has previously promoted support of Hamas.
I acknowledge that the strike was incredibly effective, moreso than even the people doing it thought it would be. But I feel like the strike was ultimately more in pursuit of indirect political objectives rather than military objectives. In that sense, it has arguably served Israel more than it has served Palestine - Palestine is under seige, likely to lose land, Netanyahu is still in power and while the polls put Netanyahu down they aren’t driving meaningful change. It could still swing either way though, we won’t know until much later.
Well a lot of them were “civilian” IDF reservists and veterans, but yes, civilian casualties definitely soured liberal support for Palestinian resistance (and gave the IDF ammo for fake atrocity propaganda, like the nonsense about beheading 40 babies and mass rape and shit like that). I don’t think it’s entirely alienated them from all support, though. I still see a lot of support for Palestine and resistance to Israel’s response, especially in the Global South. This feels different than the psychotic response America had to 9/11, y’know?
It comes down to how things escalate with the imminent ground invasion. What will Hezbollah do? What will Iran do? What will Jordan do? Egypt? The Taliban government? Hell, what will the big dogs like Saudi Arabia do? We don’t know, but Hamas is politically savvy.
I would hesitate to give Hamas credit for being politically savvy, more than to say that they have backers that instruct them on how to be politically savvy.
The ground invasion is such bullshit though. I really hate how Israel keep making out that they’re “defending themselves”, when they’re clearly not in a defensive posture. The time for defense was 7 October, when it was conspicuously absent. They’re performing a counter-attack, into foreign territory, with only a vague attempt at focusing on military targets.
Reexamine your prejudices. You might not mean it this way, but this is textbook colonial paternalism - an assumption that the colonized can’t possibly be clever or disciplined or intelligent, that they must have puppet masters that helped them win against the superior occupying Israeli forces. Guerilla fighters in every colonial resistance throughout history have been characterized the exact same way. Angola. Nicaragua. It’s always the same, it’s always some outside puppet master that’s behind every success of the resistance because the guerillas are too uncivilized and backwards to ever possibly achieve any kind of wins on their own or to strategize on the bigger picture.
Hasn’t the strike literally achieved their objectives? Everyone’s talking about them (instead of Ukraine), the Arab world is uniting behind them, and the West is progressively alienating their friends in the Global South.
If Israel had just let things lie, the status quo would have continued and Israel could have kept encroaching on the West Bank and slowly suffocating the Gaza Strip with their blockade. Instead, people are literally turning their backs on the US at the UN, there are massive protests around the world, and the Palestinian struggle is now front and center.
The only way Israel can pull a victory out of this complete and categorical defeat is by annexing the Gaza Strip.
This is all just noise, not meaningful change.
I’m not sure that victory is really the goal here. Frankly, I think the goal is merely to make war, and in turn make money by facilitating it. Always has been.