- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
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The Democrats have had YEARS to endorse anyone who was born after the Battle of the Bulge. With the election less than 4 months away, it is WAY too late to pick Biden’s successor.
They need to come with a campaign message that shows ordinary people why Biden is a better choice than Trump, which should be the easiest g*ddamn thing in the world.
The Democrat “voters” haven’t had a choice. It’s the Democrat party that has pushed for Biden so hard and not allowed any opportunity for voters to choice someone else before now.
The democratic party wants Biden as president.
I suspect the majority of Democrat voters do not want him to run again.
“Democrat voters” “Democrat party”
I asked about this curious phrasing in this comment - what’s your take on it? Why do you think there might be a notable overlap between the users who are so fed up with the Democratic Party that they’re against Biden, and the users who even though they are obviously left wing people, use a traditionally conservative turn of phrase?
I happen to be in this thread due to bouncing around, so I’ll explain anytime I use Democrat/Democratic/Republican:
I’ve had various liberals tell me Democrat was a form of dog whistle or sign I’m a right winger. One person started to dig into my mutual aid info trying to figure out if I was a Russian bot because I said “Democrat” instead of Democratic. I’ve tried to Democratic as a noun, and it felt grammatically incorrect. “I’m running as a Democatic.” “The current majority in the house is with the Democratics.”
Personally I think “Democrat” works for both candidate, party, and voter. “Biden is the Democrat’s Nominee” vs “Biden is the Democratic nominee”.
I have no idea if one is better than the other, but I tend to use one over the other when needed.
I’ve tried to Democratic as a noun, and it felt grammatically incorrect. “I’m running as a Democatic.” "The current majority in the house is with the Democratics.”
Well that sure is a totally normal human explanation.
Am I missing something here? I’ve had people say that I had to use that word otherwise I’m somehow on the payroll for the Republicans.
I do acknowledge that “Democrat” has been a form of… for lack of a better word, slur from Republican weirdos.
Serious explanation: “Democrat” as a noun is normal. “I’m running as a Democrat.” “The current majority in the house in with the Democrats.”
“Democratic” as an adjective is normal. “Democratic Party.”
“Democrat” as an adjective is super weird. I think it was originally intended as a slur, but to me it just sounds weird, like bad grammar. “Democrat Party.” Almost no one uses it that way except conservatives, because no one who doesn’t consume conservative media would even run across it.
I found your explanation very bizarre because something like “I’m running as a Democratic” is something I’ve never heard in my life. If someone actually did tell you that “Democrat” is a bad thing even as a noun, there was some severe miscommunication on someone’s part.
Apologies for being sarcastic about it
Edit: Welp, I looked over the history for the user I was talking to, and now I feel silly for thinking maybe they were actually confused somehow, and trying to help them. They’re just trying to obfuscate the original issue by introducing this nonsensical straw man of “I’m running as a Democratic,” I think, and I’m naive enough that I bought into it enough to give them a straight answer on it.
It doesn’t help I’m running short on sleep, autistic, and just not in a good mood today before the assassination attempt.
But yeah, I personally go “Democratic Party” for the party but a member of Congress is a Democrat. I’m registered Democratic Party, I am a Democrat, yadda yadda.
I found your explanation very bizarre because something like “I’m running as a Democratic” is something I’ve never heard in my life. If someone actually did tell you that “Democrat” is a bad thing even as a noun, there was some severe miscommunication on someone’s part.
Maybe, I just recall them claiming I was a fake American for doing it, and then saying my Polish friend was a form of Russian agent because he was born and lives in Poland. I can try to find the post but that was months ago.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it, Mozz.
Almost like… now hear me out… they don’t want to win…
The establishment has been keeping his mental decline as secret as possible for quite some time now. They had the time and squandered it. Now the narrative of is he fit for the presidency is going to dominate any other factor to the election. If I’m being honest with myself, he’s done. We’re just currently salvaging as much as we can and push the never-trump narrative hard and pray.
It’s annoying that most everyone can understand this, but the media keeps pretending like it’s an open question.
Because they are pushing a narrative. They aren’t being honest that no one is prepared to take over, no one else has been campaigning. Even if people wanted a replacement, there isn’t one ready to take on the mantle.
They are intentionally sowing discord.
Biden is cooked. But there is so much fear/exhaustion/disgust with Trump we are still in the margin of error.
Imagine if the Democrats ran somebody that anybody was actually positively excited about.
But that is not how the DNC works.
In 2024, who would that be? Who would you be excited about?
Literally anyone under 50 years old
How about, oh I don’t know, 62 as your ceiling. 50 is young as heck in that environment.
I’d rather vote for Bernie or Newsom, personally.
The DNC ran the person primary voters nominated
Funny, my ballot only had one name you could pick.
Yep, and I didn’t even vote for him then. Wish more people had done the same to show the party how unenthusiastic we were about it.
I did “uncommitted” back on Super Tuesday, and I would vote that way again if the primary was held again in my state today.
I will still go vote for whoever is “not Trump” in November.
Most people engaged in politics have likely made up their mind, and anyone sufficiently disengaged will vote for the incumbent and be done with it. Biden is the incumbent, and they’re not going to put forth a progressive.
Yeah
The race is not people deciding between Biden and Trump, but people on both sides who have made up their minds deciding whether or not to vote
Coincidentally, there is an enormous effort to paint voting as not worthwhile, and Biden as not good enough to be worthwhile bothering to vote for, aimed at left wing voters
Actual left-winger here. We’ve been saying the USA deserves better than Biden since before the 2020 election. Don’t lump us in with the centrists, liberals, and moderates who’ve only just pulled their heads out of the sand long enough to notice that the incumbent is expected to lose.
There’s no point in starting to panic now, all this has been inevitable since the DNC won the right to rig their own primary after the disaster that was the “Her Turn” campaign in 2016. Either y’all start calling your reps and demanding a better option on the ballot, or start making preparations for the fascism and civil unrest in our future.
Highly infuriated with the Dems over Biden in 2020 BUT he has turned out remarkably better than I ever thought. He now has a decent track record that makes him a good choice for another 4 years. On the other hand, we could go all dictator/fascist and lose all democracy. It comes down to Joe Biden who is now the one hope to save democracy.
Take the bus that gets you closest to your destination folks. In the meantime, get progressives into offices at local and state levels so they can move up to congressional levels.Its good to know progressives will hold our country hostage rather than take baby steps to a progressive country.
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I’m not a “Progressive”. American Progressives are called “Moderates” in most other countries, and their Progressives would probably call me a Communist or an Anarchist without bothering to distinguish between the two.
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The people holding this country hostage are the ones who ran the only primary challenger out of the party rather than admit that the incumbent is expected to lose re-election.
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America has to excise the fascist rot at its core before it can become a “Progressive” country. Voting alone cannot accomplish this, it would require a massive perspective shift across the general public on the scale of China’s cultural revolution. After Covid failed to induce anything but a shift to more work-from-home, I don’t see that happening.
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The first baby step I’m focused on accomplishing is trying to convince liberals that if democracy is really at stake, then they can’t run the risk of trying to play it safe like they did in 2016.
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My man he is not a progressive
Zero progressives I know IRL have any kind of idea like that Biden is mediocre implies it’s okay if Trump comes to power and takes a flamethrower to all progressive causes with impacts that will last as long as you or I are alive. It’s purely a thing I see online from self described leftists.
I wonder if I look back in their history, I will see lots of advocacy for marijuana reform or criminal justice or better foreign policy in Central / South America… or anything other than left wing causes that can be tied directly in immediate and lazy fashion back to Biden (economy, immigration, Gaza)
My man he is not a progressive
Correct. Your idea of a “progressive” is my idea of a “moderate centrist”.
Zero progressives I know IRL have any kind of idea like that Biden is mediocre implies it’s okay if Trump comes to power
I don’t think it’s “okay”, I think it’s inevitable. The DNC would rather lose to the Republicans than lose their campaign financiers (who also sponsor Republicans).
I wonder if I look back in their history, I will see lots of advocacy for marijuana reform or criminal justice or better foreign policy in Central / South America… or anything other than left wing causes that can be tied directly in immediate and lazy fashion back to Biden (economy, immigration, Gaza)
Not sure what kind of point youre trying to make here, all of the above are important issues and I’ve talked about them extensively on this and prior social media accounts. I’d have to dig into my dead Twitter account for receipts but I predicted the lack of enthusiasm for the “safe” incumbent Democrat causing Trump to win this year’s election all the way back in 2015 when the DNC decided that knocking Bernie off the ballot was more important than holding a democratic primary that was actually democratic. That the Dems would have to switch if they wanted to win has been as obvious as the fact that the incumbent won’t stand down unless forced to, an extremely unlikely proposition.
I predicted the lack of enthusiasm for the “safe” incumbent Democrat causing Trump to win this year’s election
You are in good company. Professor Allan Lichtman has a fascinating scientific approach for presidential elections. (it’s long but the first ten minutes will give you the idea).
Democrats look at the tiniest flaws rather than Biden’s popular policies.Yep, only wonks care about policy. To the average American, the election amounts to little more than a popularity contest.
They do that because the voters do that
Most people are just now waking up and paying attention while Biden’s numbers are beginning to climb, in spite of his own party trying to sabotage him.
A travesty then, considering polling consistently shows progressives would wallop Trump, and the Dems claim that democracy is on the line this election. We could do so much better, but absolutely will not at the peril of capital.
Vote blue no matter who died quickly I guess.
Those people are still voting blue. The issue is getting everyone else on board. “Vote blue no matter who” can’t carry the election entirely on its own and never could. 2020 was won on razor margins.
We need to get rid of the electoral college.
Biden beat Trump by 7 million votes. That it was “razor thin” is because of the electoral college.
Hillary lost to Trump despite winning the popular vote by 3 million because of the electoral college.
Gore lost because of Florida’s electoral college (and all the fuckery there) despite winning the popular vote by 0.5million.
Anyone sufficiently disengaged with Biden might just NOT vote. And then Trump wins. Heres a better framing of the question. Could anyone generate more voter disengagement than Biden?
they’re not going to put forth a progressive.
The corporate media would shred a real progressive but Biden is a lot more progressive leaning than I ever thought he would be.
Yeah, that’s part of why I’m so suspicious of this massive “Biden needs to be replaced” push. We’re not getting better policy out of it, and I seriously doubt it’ll hurt Trump’s odds at re-election, so why is everyone so keen on it at this stage? The time to replace him was months ago.
Exactly!
We have narrow margins these days. Elections are decided by the undecided.
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some of them are people like me who was forced to accept inescapable student loan debt (created by biden in 2005) due to don’t ask don’t tell blocking gays from getting the gi bill (supported by biden in 1993); couldn’t sponsor their life partner to allow them to stay in this country because biden et al. voted for doma in 1996; denied jobs because because biden advocated for the same thing executive order 10450 did until 2012; will lose a new job because of biden’s support for banning tiktok in january of 2025; and can’t get a new gig job because biden is blocking truly affordable EV’s from this country for the foreseeable future.
it’s got nothing to do with project 2025 nor trump being a giant douchebag; it’s about trying to convince myself to vote for someone with a conservative history that has and will fuck up my life and then pretending that he’s the most progressive president ever just to get votes while simultaneously enabling genocide’s, apartheid’s and segregationists as biden has done several times over in the last 51 years.
i need a reason to vote for him because; no matter how shitty trump or how badly he wants to steamroll over minorities (which biden has already done), he’s never fucked with my life to anywhere near the extent that biden has and i survived most of those 51 years at a time when both parties, plus moderates, plus family wanted to lock people like me up and throw away the key, so project 2025 doesn’t scare me and trump doesn’t have enough time to screw with my life to the same extent that biden did to people like me in one more term.
If you’re gay as you imply and you are thinking of voting trump you are basically bringing it down on yourself. Please switch on your brain
Fuck Trump
The answer is Bernie Sanders in 2020 and in 2016. Now? Probably nobody.
Bernie would still win. Just has to publicly recognize his old age while also showing that he’s not senile like the other 2, agree to one term, pick a good young progressive VP, and start hammering away at progressive messaging. Probably outright tell the center Dems it’s THEIR turn to hold their noses… Unless they want Trump to win.
Sanders is only one year older than Biden
But decades younger when it comes to soundness of mind
Harris is actually polling better than Biden against Trump. I know the Internet never forgets but the people do.
I’m absolutely sick of mainstream media trying to hose the democratic candidate by suggesting the guaranteed-suicidal act of switching out the incumbent. They know it’s failed every time. They still bring that up as news.
Find something else controversial to pin your ad revenue onto.
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The only suicide pact is riding a senile candidate into the sunset while there’s still a chance to get off the ride.
Are we talking about Trump now? Man I wish I could keep track of senile old bastards. Because my senile old bastards are yelling incoherent crap and not actually in the conversation.
As a matter of fact, we are talking about Trump. Any halfway decent 45-57 year old candidate will easily show Trump’s advanced age and cognitive decline. But we don’t get to run that race, because our candidate sounds like Grandpa did, the year before we put him in a nursing home.
This fucking narrative of bringing up trump every time someone questions Biden as a candidate is so fucking obnoxious.
We all know trump is senile and fucking insane. His voters are insane. We’re talking about wether or not Biden is the best candidate to defeat him. Not everyone agrees with the narrative that swapping candidates right now is a bad idea.
You’re obnoxious with not accepting that both things can exist simultaneously.
Unfortunately no. I wish. But all the wishing in the world doesn’t change the position.
So what’s the play, if Republicans aren’t sane enough to remove their geriatric, why should we guarantee his victory by forcing out ours without his consent.
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It’s entirely likely Biden is trailing in polls because of the Democrats or others with ulterior motives reiterating that Biden should step aside that he is suffering in the polls.
Anyone who realizes the danger of Trump and project 2025 should be more than willing to say “I wish Biden would choose to step aside, but given the alternative I would vote for Biden’s bloated corpse if I had to over Trump.”
How about we listen to Bernie, or think a little harder, and show a little bit of solidarity for the only other current option. It’s not about defending Biden despite his failings, it’s about not holding him to standards his opponent doesn’t have to adhere to.
If we need a candidate that isn’t slowly losing their mental acuity to old age, Democrats AND Republicans need to come together and ask their respective geriatrics to resign together. Mutual adherence to the same standard, for the sake of the country.
The Republican geriatric is leading the Democrat in the polls. Why would they show him the door? If Democrats continue this Biden route Trump will just win.
Oh, I just thought we’d treat them the same. Ya know, instead of this classic Democrat ploy of attempting to ensure a defeat.
Why is it always Democrats that have to hold their politicians to a higher bar than Republicans. How about we have some solidarity for the best chance we have at not living in a fascist shithole for once?
Demcrats don’t have morals or standards they’re running a guy complicit in Genocide. What do you even mean dude??
Every other time was different. Trumps the guaranteed winner unless something changes.
- They are polling dead even; even if the polls are garbage that’s some sort of indication that “guaranteed winner” is false no matter how hard people keep repeating it
- That said, I get what you’re getting at. It’s really too bad there’s that big stasis rift in reality that means nothing can possibly change except replacing Biden with some other candidate, and that that action and that action alone is guaranteed to produce a good result, no matter how we do it.
Fucking rift
He’s been known for making gaffes since he was Obama’s vice president. From his Wikipedia page:
The remark revived Biden’s reputation for gaffes.[227][221][228]
Those sources are from 2009.
Journalist and TV anchor Wolf Blitzer has called Biden loquacious;[692] journalist Mark Bowden has said that he is famous for “talking too much”, leaning in close “like an old pal with something urgent to tell you”.[298] He often deviates from prepared remarks[693] and sometimes “puts his foot in his mouth”.[169][694][695] Biden has a reputation for being prone to gaffes[696] and in 2018 called himself “a gaffe machine”.[697][698] The New York Times wrote that Biden’s “weak filters make him capable of blurting out pretty much anything.”[169]
He has struggled with a stutter most of his life, which he learned to cover up.
AOC or Bernie Sanders.
I think they are probably too polarizing.
Maybe, but we can dream
I still haven’t seen anyone put forth a candidate worth throwing away Bidens incumbentcy advantage, Harris isn’t a great option
You’ve identified the issue yes
Kamala Harris is the only option that polls better than Biden, and she’s not a great option, no. I wish there were one that seemed like “oh that is the answer yes.”
I think - this is a completely serious statement - that Jon Stewart would be a great option. But because our political system is broken, we can’t do that.
Jon Stewart would absolutely win if he went for it, but he doesn’t want to. It sucks.
That’s all I’m saying. That’s all anyone is saying.
Take ego and hubris out of the equation. Who has the absolute best chance of beating the fascists?
That’s it. That’s the only question that really matters right now in the context of this upcoming election, if we want to stop Trump.
yeah except democrats were so sure it was shillary, and then REFUSED the far better candidate in Bernie Sanders. Even if they came out tomorrow with someone, told everybody it was a lock, and the entire DNC fell in behind them, I still wouldn’t trust them to get it right.
But would you vote for them? No names, just generic Democrat.
course I would. But I’m uniquely aware of how catastrophically dangerous a second drumpf term would be. The average american may believe that we could survive a second term, much like we did the first, but that ignores the very real plans being enacted by drumpfs handlers. The US pulling out of NATO, or stopping aid to the Ukraine (which would 100% happen under drumpf) would mean WWIII, which is precisely what these right wing think tanks want. They see the expansion of US power after WWII as something worth repeating, even if it means having to go through a third world war. The rich and powerful always think they’ll be insulated from the war, which is why they aren’t as scared for it. They look at it much like the stock market, they’re trying to destroy the corporation of America so that they can buy up for cheap what’s left over.
Well good news. You’re not the only one. Generic Democrat beats Trump by something like 8 points in polling versus Biden losing to Trump.
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Yeah but if we let perfect be the enemy of the good then we’re going to ride this thing into the dirt.
Yeah cause it’s a great idea to change candidates 4 fucking months before the election.
well its a great idea for your opponent to push forward.
4 months is a massive amount of time. Other counties have their entire election cycle in half the time. America’s 1-2 year long presidential election cycle is so weird.
There have been plenty of presidential elections where the candidate wasn’t known until the nominating convention in August. This whole “12 month election cycle” bullshit is a pretty new phenomenon.
Anyway, the absolute media shitstorm that will ensue if Biden is dropped from the ticket will more than make up for the late start to a new candidate’s campaign — the new DNC nominee will dominate the news cycle for weeks without having to spend a dime.
This whole “12 month election cycle” bullshit is a pretty new phenomenon.
That exactly the point. We’re in the age of the 24 hour news cycle were attentions spans have been grounded into dust. For a campaign to win there needs to be nonstop engagement. Half of lemmy forgot all the actual good stuff Biden has done in his 4 years. Even the stuff they wanted and legitimately benefitted from. The fuck is a new candidate going to do in 3 or 4 months?
Because attention spans are short, we should need even less time to position a candidate. Voters aren’t going to remember 4 months ago in November, right?
Considering that Biden has done fuck-all to evangelize the good things his administration has done, anything a new candidate does to campaign in the next few months would be an improvement.
Normally I’d agree, but this ain’t your average election. A Dem candidate younger than Biden could be out there pounding the campaign trail day after day, generating enthusiasm in a way that Biden now seems physically incapable of doing.
Plus, a large number of voters hate both candidates. A shiny new candidate would be exciting and unprecedented, and would get boatloads of attention. They could easily close the gap with Trump, despite what the polls say.
nearly all elections were like this until 2016; nobody was sure who the candidate was until the convention.
The optics are shot, people have already heard dem leaders having meetings about his capabilities. The situations only going to deteriorate in the coming months as things are.
And yet, I and many others will vote for him. We cannot let Trump anywhere near the presidency. I honestly would vote for a dead frog over Trump. The staff that’s in place is competent, have done well for us, and I believe they’ll hold things together until Kamala takes over.
Of course we would all rather a much younger, charismatic candidate, but it is what it is.
At this point, I truly believe most Democratic voters understand the assignment.
Unfortunately, elections are not decided by people like us.
A rabid chimp wielding a machete would honestly be safer than another Trump presidency.
We know you’ll vote for anyone with a “D” next to their name. Being a “safe” voter means the party doesn’t have to try and earn your vote. Thus, you can be safely ignored, because appealing to you won’t raise enthusiasm among undecided voters.
What’s amusing to me is how the DNC always fails to apply this logic strategically. If they’ve got such huge masses ready to vote blue no matter who, then what’s the harm in switching to another candidate?
Yeah, it’s always a puzzle whether the DNC is being malicious or just stupid.
Wasnt really a statement of what you should do, just a prediction. If biden stays in the race i think Trump becomes president
The majority of people really like and prefer Joe Biden’s policies. They didn’t vote him in office to debate. Democrats have no spine and are quit willing to be lead to the loser’s corner.
You forget, as as everyone always seems to, THE VOTERS ARE STUPID
unfortunately, debates matter to a lot of people and may be the only time some people really pay attention to politics
Most people only bother to begin paying attention after the conventions.
Oh sure, “now” they have to ask it but a year ago everything was hunky dory. Get fucked
- That’s 2 questions.
- The more important question is asking how you convince Biden to step down. He has the delegates, he is the nominee if he wants to be. You could have the best candidate ever (they don’t) and it wouldn’t matter if you can’t get Biden to step down.
The party committee can meet and change the rules. Ironically it was SCOTUS that made this possible.
Even if you could change the rules, the delegates were decided by the Biden campaign. Would be hard to convince more than half of them to change their vote without Biden himself asking them to.
You’re forgetting all the super delegates. Also, those delegates were pledged months ago. Freed to vote in a brokered convention you might see some change.
Super Delegates don’t get to vote in the first ballot anymore, they changed the rules because the Bernie Bros were mad Hillary got a lot of Super Delegates. They didn’t want the Super Delegates to be able to do…exactly what you’re proposing.
Actually…I guess if we’re talking rule changes I guess you COULD change it so Super Delegates voted on the first ballot again, and hope enough Super Delegates were on board, but what an insane crisis of legitimacy that would cause. Like I guess you could change the rules so Nancy Pelosi picks the next Democratic nominee but that’s not a good way to make the voters feel heard.
If it was up to me I’d be like, everyone is going to learn what a caucus is and we’re having a national caucus day for Democrats on August 1, at your local party office parking lot. But I’m not in charge. That’s really just a way to show how we can solve this while listening to voters.
In the UK there are 5 independent MP’s who beat both mainstream parties that won just by advocating for a ceasefire in Gaza.
Now if anyone wants to save Democracy it might be time to sack Genocide Joe and run a candidate that actually has popular policies. Because Biden will not beat Trump and that was even before he started adding Geriatric to his list of adjectives.
We arent Europe. Most American Boomers, even the ones who arent republicans, support Israel. Because they’re boomers
Suburban boomers are not relevant. Swing voters are the only party that matters. Without them Democrats won’t win.
Supposedly Bidens support for israel was because he wants to win the Zionist vote in New York. Strangely everyone found that perfectly reasonable and didn’t say anything about how Trump is actually antisemitic (Nevermind that it turns out real Jews actually don’t support israel because New York is turning into a Red state right now after Biden got on his knees for Netanyahu)
But using the exact same logic as Biden uses to win Zionist votes, Democrats seem perplexed that Arabs and Muslims aren’t going to vote for someone committing Genocide against their people.
Suburban boomers/Xers ARE most of the swing voters
The irony is that if people don’t vote for Biden because of his Israel policy (which has been the policy of every president before him), then Trump will win and then Gaza will be finished.
Gaza is already finished what do you mean?
It might be impossible to understand for Biden supporters but some people actually have functional red lines. And Biden crossed them.
Rewarding Biden for this behavior is far worse in the long term than the slightly more evil Trump could be. Thought I doubt Trump would actually be worse on Palestine.
So you would rather enable a Gaza at home over your morals. Great job. OUTCOMES MATTER
When you read the “first they came for” poem, what do you think it means?
A vote for Biden is a vote for Genocide and Fascism to come to the USA in the future.
What’s better, fascism “sometime in the future”, or fascism in 4 months?
It’s like I’m talking to a bunch of CEO’s that are incapable of seeing anything else than short term gains.
Unless you’re fully bought into the 2025 fearmongering BS, a vote for Biden now means Democrats will learn they can keep doing this in the future.
If this makes Biden lose they will learn that screwing over an entire voter demographic to make Genocide possible is not a viable political strategy.
You haven’t answered the question. Who else will beat Trump?
Bernie Sanders
God I wish, but no. His time is past.
He isn’t dementing yet.
He is older than both Trump and Biden, and we all generally agree both of them are already too old.
He is 1 year older.
Biden is not too old in absolute numbers. He is too old in terms of literally having a mental illness and being unable to function.
Do Democrats not know how aging works too? Not every person contracts an illness at the same age.
I would love to adopt an European system. I wish .ore people accepted that they have been doing it longer and better. But that whole “we left it behind” thing.
