Well Ukraine got worn out over last 2 years with spotty western support and weird restrictions on weapons usage.
This is where the west wanted Ukraine. So here we are.
Russia is weakened so west and US got what they wanted it so now we are ready to do a deal.
Nobody will ever give up nukes after this and many countries are going to be getting their nukes in order as that is the only way to properly secure sovereignty and territorial integrity.
Coupled with Israel behavior undermining “rules” based international order, this is the brave new world we got.
Cheers.
[nukes are] the only way to properly secure sovereignty and territorial integrity
As North Korea had correctly identified early and worked towards diligently to protect their people.
This is where the west wanted Ukraine. So here we are.
Russia is weakened so west and US got what they wanted it so now we are ready to do a deal.
What the West wanted ideally was the balkanization and re-neocolonialization of Russia. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/17/the-west-is-preparing-for-russias-disintegration/
The “weakening” of Russia is what they considered “second prize,” but they didn’t even get that, because Russia is now stronger. The sanctions have backfired. Russia has severed its ties with the “garden” and strengthened its ties to the “jungle.”
Unlikely. If the west was pushing to destroy Russia they would have provided Ukraine with adequate arms to do so. They deliberately created a drawn out long conflict. Whether Russia has been weakened as they hoped is debateable. It does not yet appear so.
They wanted to destroy Russia economically, not militarily, you know, the usual “bog them in forever war and sanction them to death because we control the world finance systems” and it had a good chance of success, but they miscalculated since Russia relations with China and global south in general proven to be much more robust. It was also first time after 1991 so many countries just told US “no” when they demanded another country be destroyed economically. As result BRICS managed to build their own alternative for US controlled finance system, which is pretty ad hoc by now, but it already works and is being strenghtened.
The west has to balance providing adequate arms and not getting bombed/invaded themselves. They only do invasions on enemies they think can’t defend themselves.
They thought the sanctions would do to Russia what it did to Libya, Venezuela, Iraq, and many others, and that they’d only need to drag this one out to win it on the economic rather than the military front. That obviously hasn’t worked, so rather than broker the peace talks a majority of Ukrainians want, they’re escalating because they don’t know how to do diplomacy, they only know how to do extortion. They’re talking about “negotiating from strength” ffs.
Only permawar provides for the most weapon sales. The sanctions on Russia was tighter colonization of EU by the US. To the last Ukrainian is opportunity to buy Ukraine assets for cheap, and making the war last longer, means cheaper, and more EU subservience.
Also more debt. The same people whining about the fictitious Chinese debt trap are really silent about how the US are lending billions to Ukraine so they can finance these arms deals, we know what these countries do once you can’t repay, they confiscate all your shit.
If Russia was ever truly pushed to the brink Russia could always nuke Ukraine. There is no real way to win against nukes besides giving Ukraine their nukes back because America did not hold up their end of the nuclear deal.
Well, the only party that did was Ukraine, really.
Maybe don’t give nukes to a fucking nazi government in hopes that’ll bring peace? Why not start with diplomacy and iterate from there?
Their industry has been slowly decaying over the years and can’t adequately supply Ukraine in a long, drawn out conflict without jeopardizing their own defense. The amount of equipment Ukraine received at the first few months of the conflict was staggering, but most of it was from stockpiles built over years. Russia ramped up their industry a lot during the war and is outproducing the west, so it’s no wonder they are winning.
Not really. Only recently have they started sending modern long range missiles and semi modern fighter jets to Ukraine. Those were available since the start.
True, but they wouldn’t have changed the course of the war.
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The restrictions aren’t “weird”. These are weapons that need satellite guidance from NATO satellites and stockpiled at NATO bases.
If they started being fired en masse, Russia would need to disable those satellites, and the US only instigated this war to weaken Russia and prevent it from arming anti imperialist resistance groups in the middle east. It’s not interested in actually fighting, because fighting an organized army is much harder, much costlier, and carries more risk than invading Asian countries with peasant militias.
US only instigated this war to weaken Russia
Well, that’s certainly a perspective.
Really unclear how the US forced Russia to invade, you’ll have to explain that part I think.
The war exists only because Russia’s conditions for peace are not accepted. No NATO (or missile bases) in Ukraine. There was a very patient peace agenda by Russia, signed by the west and Ukraine btw, before SMO.
The war exists because Russia invaded. You can’t have a “peace agenda” or “conditions for peace” until someone started a war in the first place, and that was Russia.
The war only started in 2021 if you ignore the fact that fascist Nazi militias were shelling civilians and civilian infrastructure in eastern Ukraine for 7 years before Russia launched its SMO. There were two ceasefire agreements signed (Minsk 1 & Minsk 2) that these militias consistently violated. If you don’t believe me, you’re welcome to see for yourself. A French journalist documented this and spoke to residents about the ongoing conflict. CW: death and devastation.
Get ready to be told that Russia should just walk all their troops back and that’d be peace achieved (bombing in the Donbas doesn’t count, apparently, because it’s the good Nazis doing it), like a fucking toddler’s concept of geopolitics.
History ended in 1991 and started up again 30 years later. Everything in between doesn’t count.
I don’t believe your position can be honest. It basically says all bar fights are started by the one throwing first punch, no matter what threats are made. All US media and CIA subterfuge to corrupt democracies is not done for the benefit of the democracies. War on Russia is largely a US war on its allies, and tolerance for the concept that Russia is not forced to defend its existence, or have red lines where peace can thrive, just shows how corrupt and fooling democracy can be. Not that Ukraine is a democracy.
Not forced, more goaded. This is the war the US wanted, but it didn’t want to be seen as the one who started it.
NATO expansion:
- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner
- Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia
- Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
.
US-backed Maidan coup & fascist attacks on Eastern Ukraine:- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
Love the “you made me do this to you” energy here, very progressive stance of believing that sometimes abusers just have to hit people, and there’s truly nothing that can be done about it.
The geopolitics of nuclear powers as an interpersonal relationship. Peak Marvel brain.
I’ve also seen this analogy: “Russia had no business in Ukraine, just as US had no business in Afghanistan”. Apparently coming from someone who couldn’t find Ukraine on the map and had no idea how much history and culture these two countries share
Yeah, analogies are hard when you take them as literally as possible.
Gringos and their fucking victim complex I swear. Y’all just got done toppling Syria and their people are already being stoned to death in the street when they’re not being bombed. A few years ago you did it to Haiti, and they’re starving to death, like you did it to Peru, and you did it to Libya, where there are slave markets now thanks to y’all.
So this is less an abusive partner insisting it’s your fault and more a motherfucker who’s killed hundreds waving a knife inches from your face insisting you’re a menace for clocking him. The fact that the US launders its provocations through their client states doesn’t mean the rest of the world is as stupid as westerners to buy it. We’re not invested in empire, so we don’t have to close our eyes and pretend we’re the good guys in this.
Wow, I had no idea I personally intervened in Syria, Myanmar, Haiti, and Libya, I must have a ton of airline rewards and severe memory issues!
Don’t sins-of-the-father me if you don’t even know where I am, thanks in advance.
And the Olympic gold for comically missing the point by getting strangely defensive goes to…
I know libs don’t do it personally, they limit themselves to cheering on genocides from their armchair and stamping down on people who want to stop their imperialist governments
More deeply unserious nonsense.
This is also missing the fact that Russia and Ukraine already had a peace agreement, the Minsk II accords. Which Ukraine promptly violated by bombing Donbas for 5 years and killing upwards of 14 thousand civilians.
I’m sorry but those happened before the beginning of history, which started on February 24, 2022.
Jesus Fucking Gish Gallop Christ.
Nobody forced Russia to invade another sovereign nation. If anything it goes to show that being in NATO keeps you safe from Russia (just look at the baltic states). If Putin and/or Russia’s goal was to stop NATO expansion this war already did the opposite.
Jesus Fucking Gish Gallop Christ.
All of those are Western sources, and most of them are well-known, MB/FC-blessed sources.
Next you’re going to tell me that NATO is a defensive alliance.
- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
So why did biden lift them 2 years too late now?
Because he’s a senile genocidal fuck whose only restraints for provoking a nuclear war was that he might lose an election he already lost.
This has been obvious to anyone who read beyond Western media headlines for a long time now
How long is a long time?
I remember when people were legitimately saying Ukraine could take back crimea…
For me, I would say around 2020 and knowing the US was responsible for blowing up the pipelines the around summer 2021, considering the news at that time I could already tell. Not in detail, but enough to know it a high likelyhood, with doubts in between.
April 2022
It’s not necessary to reclaim every kilometre with fighting. If Russia is brought to it’s knees financially, the peace can still be achieved.
Just look at ww1. For its entirety, the front was in France and Belgium and Germany held french territory. They still lost. And the Atlantic blockade and sanctions were a big part of that.
no sh*t, sherlock!
You understand that just posting a bunch of bullshit links with bad takes doesn’t make it true.
Hey, independent.co.uk, this is too much truth. Tone it down.
Don’t listen to Zelensky: he’s just parroting Kremlin talking points.
The sadistic clown gets more and more pathetic…
No negotiations until we get Crimea back.
Ok we won’t get Crimea. But no negotiatians until we get back to 2022 borders.
Ok we won’t get back to 2022 borders. But no negotiations until someone makes Putin negotiate with me (???).
Turning Ukrainians into slaves who cannot leave the country are kidnapped off the streets and sent to die the most horrible deaths in the meatgrinder? Yes that’s totally legal and absolutely moral, why are you even asking?
Making peace with Russia by admitting you lost the war to save hundreds of thousands of lives? That’s like the most illegal and horrible thing ever.
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
Sounds like whatsboutism. What time is it in Moscow?
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything?
Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.
Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about
Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)
almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country
Literally never said that, ok :)
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
Lol, really?
Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /sNice work cherry picking the single item on the list that doesn’t fit, you sure aren’t beating the allegations today!
Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale. Every time Russia retreated, mass graves and torture cbambers were found.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done. The west could have equipped those poeple. The west could have trained those people. In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted, if they were properly equipped and trained. It’s in the west’s power to do that. They just don’t want to. Also, you just conveniently ignore the absolutely horrific losses the Russians are having with theirmeat wave assaults. But I guess in your world view, Zelensky is responsible for that too.
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale.
Serious citations needed. Please do not spread atrocity propaganda in this comm.
How about UN reports? You can find them by simply googling.
I’ve found no UN reports detailing activities such as those on an industrial scale. Please cite the UN reports.
2.58.
The Commission previously found that Russian authorities had committed torture in seven provinces of Ukraine and in the Russian Federation. 32 It has continued to gather evidence of widespread and systematic use of torture by Russian authorities, in both Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
Literally the first report I opened.
Continue, you only have several more claims that aren’t cited. For example, the use of language “industrial scale” for torture.
Also please keep in mind that this isn’t a high standard of evidence, as UN reports often are influenced- such as the significant citations of the German fascist Adrien Zenz in some of their reporting on China.
Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between ‘industrial scale’ and ‘systematic and widespread’ is. Not enough conveyor belts and smokestacks?
Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.
Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.
Bucha has high likelihood of being black flag/theater propaganda. It’s not like Israel denying they committed the first gaza hospital for 2 day media blitz, and then destroying all of the other ones. You can’t trust Ukrainian PR because it is entirely a fundraising campaign.
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing
Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted
I know I know, all of us would gladly die for your interests, and those of us who wouldn’t are Russian agents.
Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.
So you want to sell me one incident that is acknowledged and is being investigated as a gotcha to discredit the systematic and widespread torture the Russian state is employing? You really are dense.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
And again, you want to sell me one incident that is being investigated as a gotcha to the illegal and widespread use of tear gas by Russia in this war? Not beating my accusation there, you are.
So you want to sell me one incident
Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I’m dense… That’s what happens every single day, it’s in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky’s regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That’s a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?How about enough for a UN report on torture like for Russia you clown?
Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple “to the last Ukrainian” kind of thing :/
Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted. What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.
There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for
everyoneRussia.They’re not leaving until NATO and Ukraine abandons NATO membership, but they are leaving as soon as they do. Why fight for that purpose?
“You don’t need to be protected from us” he said while invading.
Yeah, again, not a winning argument here.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.
Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?
Well since I said “you” and you aren’t the entire population of Ukraine (I assume, but maybe you do in fact contain multitudes) I don’t see how this is relevant at all!
I… are you accusing him of losing the war because he enjoys it?
He’s losing it because his western sponsors won’t let him negotiate a peace deal (that the majority OF HIS COUNTRY wants, regardless of what armchair chicken hawks think they should do). If he had tried at any point, he would have gotten deposed (or worse) like they deposed Yanukovich in 2014.
Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.
Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.
Please tell me more about this analogy of yours.
He is a sadistic clown because he turned country into a mass prison where he kidnaps people off the streets, beats them and send them to the meatgrinder to die. And those who don’t like it are literally tortured. All while you cheer his efforts.
Until somehow the world order changes and states dissolve into something else, drafts are a fact of life. One of the prices you pay for having a state provide you with stable infrastructure, transportation, fire, medical, law enforcement, property rights, etc. etc. is the possibility that one day you may be called upon to defend that state.
Your beef is with the systems we have, not Zelensky in particular.
No, my “beef” is with Zelensky in particular, he is the one who actively tries to exterminate me and every other Ukrainian.
I don’t consider him a ‘sadistic clown,’ but I do see your point.
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Latest is that no one should negotiate with Russia but him, while also getting immediate NATO and EU membership.
