This is the second megathread for discussion regarding the crisis.
Informal/Satirical news sources are not allowed on the main feed of the community but you are free to post them in this thread.
Please remember that all community and instance rules apply to this thread hence keep is civil.
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Like Serbia?
I am going to use this thread to make a continuation of what I’ve posted in the first megathread where I shared a plethora of related links that share insight on the nature of this conflict.
Reports
#Nakba
Burying the Nakba: How Israel Systematically Hides Evidence of 1948 Expulsion of Arabs
Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew
‘I Saw Fit to Remove Her From the World’
Zionist Militia’s Efforts to Recruit Nazis in Fight Against the British Are Revealed
#Recent Events
Using an Attack Dog, Israeli Women Soldiers Forced Palestinian Women to Undress
Cigarette Burns, Beatings, Attempted Sexual Assault: Settlers and Soldiers Abused Palestinians
Israeli Settler Documented Shooting Palestinian at Point-blank in the West Bank
Israeli tank fires on car near Gaza City
Hundreds Involved in Attacking Arabs and Leftists, but Israel Police Arrest Only Four
Far-right Israeli Knesset Member Zvi Sukkot to Head Subcommittee on the West Bank
Perspectives
#Videos
Dr. Gabor Maté (Holocaust Survivor)
^ Here’s an interview regarding recent events.
Katie harper interviews political scientist and activist, Norman Finklestein
^At 1:43:50, Finklestein asserts that Israel would bomb a residential area, wait for people to come out and call an ambulance, and then bomb the ambulance.
Katie Harper interviews journalists and political activists regarding recent events.
^At 00:24:15, Ali asserts that Israel is willing to shoot their own civilians as evidenced by the Hannibal Directive, verifiable events, and testimonies such as Yasmin Porat’s where the IDF was shooting indiscriminately and even fired tank shells into Israeli homes.
#Articles
How colonizers weaponize rape: reflections from the Palestinian case
Opinion | Dying in Southern Gaza: ‘I Want to Go Home. At Least I’ll Die After Drinking Fresh Water’
Opinion | Amid the Mourning, Israel’s Settlement Enterprise Celebrates a Great Victory
Testimonials
Israeli Soldier’s Explosive Tell-All: “Palestinians are right to resist” - Former IDF soldier talks about how he realized that his actions were perpetuating apartheid, and that Palestinians were right to resist through any means.
Tantoura Ethnic Cleansing Testimony - Yosef Diamant ^[There is a whole-ass documentary for those interested.
Breaking the Silence - Israeli NGO where IDF veterans testify their experiences. Some examples:
If you find any other notable background information, feel free to share.
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I recommend this book written by Ilan Pappe a jewish historian, who now lives and works in UK.
Here will be a compiled list of 972 magazine articles related to this conflict, continually updated as I delve into this harrowing treasure trove of information:
July 31, 2015: Palestinian baby burned to death in West Bank arson attack
July 31, 2016: A year since the Duma murders: Navigating justice and pain
October 12, 2020: For Israel, tens of thousands of Palestinian newborns don’t exist
June 8, 2021: Settlers shot Palestinian and mutilated his body as he lay dying
July 15, 2021: Joint militias: How settlers and soldiers teamed up to kill four Palestinians
April 5, 2022: Israel charges Palestinian journalists with incitement — for doing their jobs
April 10, 2022: Israel’s false promise of security
May 25, 2022: Israel says this book justifies Masafer Yatta expulsions. Its author begs to differ
July 8, 2022: This Israeli forbids Palestinians from building. He lives in an illegal outpost
July 11, 2022: Classified document reveals IDF ‘firing zones’ built to give land to settlers
August 11, 2022: ‘We killed a little boy, but it was within the rules’
August 30, 2022: Israel destroyed Palestinian village for luxury settlement that was never built
September 15, 2022: How Israeli media reported a ‘lynching’ that never happened
September 26, 2022: ‘We built the Palestinian Authority with blood. We won’t give up on it’
November 8, 2022: “He asked me how many children I have. Then he said: ‘Now you have one less.'”
October 5, 2022: In Jenin and Nablus, resistance and despair go hand in hand
January 24, 2023: A coming out party for Israel’s religious Jewish left
February 16, 2023: The theft of Harun Abu Aram’s body, home, and life
February 27, 2023: The pogrom is the point
March 2, 2023: ‘They were burning our house with kids inside. The army didn’t let us through’
March 5, 2023: ‘I couldn’t see if my brother’s murderer was a soldier or settler’
March 13, 2023: ‘Who hits a 64-year-old woman with a bat?’
March 22, 2023: Armed settlers break into Palestinian family home under cover of darkness
May 3, 2023: Revealed: The IDF unit turning ‘hilltop youth’ settlers into soldiers
November 13, 2023: How a hasbara group’s sham investigation put Gaza journalists in the firing line
November 23, 2023: What Israelis won’t be asking about the Palestinians released for hostages
November 30, 2023: A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
December 8, 2023: ‘It would’ve been better if they shot us’: Palestinians recount prison abuse
December 11, 2023: ‘Diseases are spreading rapidly’: In Jabalia camp, thousands shelter in one school
December 19, 2023: Gaza’s rescue workers are haunted by those they couldn’t save
December 19, 2023: A Palestinian student briefly deleted her social media. Israel revoked her permit
December 28, 2023: Palestinian Christians in Gaza fear being ‘swept under the rubble or into the desert’
July 15 2021
More articles from the author of this piece: Yuval Abraham
Thank you for this. Very helpful.
They migrated from North Arabia and took Jewish land every time the Jews were forcefully removed by a long line of oppressors. Then, when every Arab country started kicking out Jews, thy had nowhere to go but their homeland. When they arrived in the early 40’s en masse, the Palestinian leader met with Hitler to see about exterminating them. You got the colonizer/colonized dynamic backwards. This is what happens when you get your info from Facebook.
I saw this YouTube comment where people were arguing whether the Palestinians or Jewish people were there first. Does anyone know how accurate this comment is?
Seems like baseless rhetoric to justify the ongoing colonization and atrocities of the past century.
First, Arabs and Hebrews both have ancestry dating to the Levant back in the bronze age. Many of the Jews back then would have descendents that would later convert to Christianity and Islam.
Second, up until the colonial era, when the Jews were being persecuted by European nations, they sought refuge under Arab and Muslim rule. One notable example would be the Muslim Sultan, Salah ad-Din, allowing Jews to resettle in Jerusalem after the European Crusaders brutally kicked them out. Another example would be the treatment of Jews under the Ottoman Empire.
Third, even if all of this was not true, that does not justify the ongoing oppression, atrocities, ethnic cleansing, genocide of the indigenous people for the past 75 years, nor does it change who is and isn’t a colonizer and the colonized. This video gives a good explanation on why.
Thanks! You seemed very informed about the conflict so yours felt like a good comment to ask that question under, which had been on my mind since I saw it under an old Abby Martin video of her interviews with Israelis. That video looks like it will probably take some time to watch but it gives me a place to start.
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‘America First’ Republicans Explain Why They Support Israel’s Military
“Oh, just because I have a basement full of Nazi memorabilia, I can’t support Israel?”
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I went incognito on youtube earlier today, saw a disgusting fascist propaganda piece “debunking” this chart on the front page, 2nd result.
What’s the educated opinion of how could this been handled by Israel? Honest question. (Ignoring the fact that Israel failed with intel)
To me it seems like Gaza had no intention to get rid of Hamas though at the same time bombing is unnecessary as the culprits can’t really leave other than the secret tunnels to Egypt which can’t really be bombed.
So the only real alternative is a full Blockade and ultimatum or something? Clearly Gaza doesn’t stand a chance against IDF too so Israel had all of the cards to conjure any response they wanted.
I’ve tried to Google similar modern scenarios and couldn’t find anything.
To me it seems like Gaza had no intention to get rid of Hamas though at the same time bombing is unnecessary.
There hasn’t been elections for 16 or 17 iirc so how can Palestinians “get rid of” Hamas?
Hamas was supported & funded by Netanyahus likud party specifically because it drove a wedge between those in Gaza and in the West Bank. Classic divide and conquer technique.
As for what Israel can do? They can get rid of the genocidal crook that’s running their government and his two murderous far right henchmen and grasp that he had concocted this situation for several reasons:
To divert attention away from his corruption and fraud indictments
To quell the protests that have been going on for months against him because of the corruption and legislation he has passed to curtail the supreme courts ability to hold the executive to account.
To level Gaza, ethnically cleanse it & genocide the Palestinian people so he can get to the natural gas and oil reserves there.
Yes, there’s a lot Israel can do and it needs to be quick about it.
It sounds like you just put everything you don’t like about Israel in that answer, but without actually giving an answer how this actually could be handled. “Just don’t to bad stuff, do good stuff” How would that have been an appropriate response to the terrorist attack?
You’re talking as though the attacks happened in a vacuum, without intelligence from several sources pre-warning of it and without a certain level of collusion from the Israeli executive to allow it to happen and bring capitalised by then for it’s maximum effect.
When you can genuinely approach the subject not from such a disingenuous perspective then my response may well be perceived by you as a bit more than "If you don’t want to be taken for a cunt then don’t act like one "
For me it sounds like you are you saying, they deserve the terrorist attack and are not allowed to react to it.
That would be the exact reactionary response I would expect from someone with no grasp of the history, its complexity or even a miniscule amount of knowledge of the atrocities that have been carried out against civilians by both sides
Then you’re just ignoring geopolitics and talking about who said what.
We can’t change the past. What should Israel do now?
So you didn’t bother to read my comment then?
If you’re too lazy to do that, why the fuck should I put any effort beyond this in replying?
I did. Replacing the government with one less bad would be good, but what should such a theoretical good government do in response to the Hamas attack? For example, I think more fewer air strikes and more ground combat would be better for minimizing civilian casualties, though more Israeli soldiers would die as a result.
Restore Palestine to the 1917 borders. Grant all Palestinians equal rights within those borders. All zionists who were involved in perpetrating war crimes either directly, or indirectly via policy, to face trial at the Hague
Stop using the phrase “terrorist attack” to mean “unspeakable evil that can never ever be justified by anyone for anything and can never be questioned and must be responded to with all possible violence means necessary”.
Terrorism is an act of political resistance, by definition. It is any violence used to inspire fear and bring about political change.
The political change being sought is the end to slow genocide, the end to apartheid, the end to violent displacement, the end to violent neglect, the end to subjugation. When analyzing the situation, the decision was made by the resistance fighters that this action would lead to political change, and so far that possibility is still there.
Israel’s response should have been ages ago. It has no legitimacy anymore. It exists purely through violent domination. There is no way for Israel to respond correctly except to begin the political process of dissolving itself and ceding power to the Palestinians. They won’t do this, so literally anything else is just going to be a continuation of the last 80 years of violent oppression. There’s no way for Israel to act correctly because it hasn’t been acting correctly for decades and responding to this attack isn’t going to change that.
What might change it is their military being bested by the resistance, their missile defense shield being shown to not protect anyone, fear on the part of settlers causing them to abandon settlements, and internal rebellion demanding justice and ending the illegal occupation.
Ideally Israel wouldn’t have been oppressing Palestinians in the first place so that Hamas would never have come to power. They could have engaged in dialogue and diplomacy with Hamas and the Palestinians to figure out something that would work for everyone. They could have negotiated a prisoner swap or something for the hostages.
But Israel, specifically Likud and the right-wing parties, have no interest in this. They want all of Palestine gone, and to control it all themselves.
Not to mention that Hamas had accepted the 1967 borders back in 2017 and it was Netanyahu who rejected it. Hamas is a pet project by Netanyahu to divide Palestinians in Gaza from the West Bank. He’s helped nurture and support them as a means to do more land grabs and expand Israel’s territorial grip. So the starting point has to be a full withdrawal of the occupation, the ability for Palestinians to have a democratic government that is free from Israeli influence, and the restoration of the 1967 borders. The withdrawal of all Israeli settlers from within Palestinian borders.
You leave out that in the same statement, Hamas denied the statehood of Israel, indicating that they wanted Israel to make huge one-sided concessions, without making any concessions of their own.
Because Israel has been literally stealing land while demanding Palestinians give up more.
Edit: added context.
They literally started a land grab in 2017.
https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2017/50-years-illegal-settlements/index.html
They can also currently stop protecting murderers in the west bank. So we don’t have to ask how did a radical movement take power there a couple of years from now.
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Israel could stop being an apartheid state and stop illegally occupying Palestinian land and imprisoning millions of gazans and hamas would no longer be a political force. Because hamas is a violent reaction to colonial violence after nonviolent reactions failed for decades.
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Dealing with this situation logically doesn’t work, because it’s not logic that got it started.
Both sides have majority support for essentially exterminating the other side.
Add to the fact that both sides are receiving massive external support in order for those external nations to wage a proxy war against each other, and it’s just a shit show all around.
You’re right, logic didn’t start the current conflict. The British did when they disarmed Palestinians and armed and trained Zionist paramilitaries. This enabled the Zionists to forcibly evict hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in a brutal ethnic cleansing campaign. The pace at which Palestinians are being displaced has slowed but it has never stopped. While Palestinian resistance movements have received outside support it pales in comparison to the military support Israel receives from the US and other western countries. This conflict is unfortunately very one sided.
If you think Arabs and Jews fighting started with the British, you’d be a thousand years late to the party.
Changing the balance of the power did not start the conflict.
Okay so you’re just going to ignore the hundreds of years of relative peace in the region under Ottoman rule immediately preceding WWI?
So peaceful… Multiple massacres and entire towns getting sacked for being Jewish sure doesn’t sound like peaceful to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#Antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv
The Ottomans lost in WWI, and the empire got split up. It’s not surprising that non-Muslim groups in the area got control of some of the parts.
“Got control” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. You can’t just paper over British involvement and the hundreds of Palestinian villages that were destroyed in a mass ethnic cleansing campaign by Zionists. This was clearly a dramatic escalation in any religious or ethnic violence that occurred in the region as compared to years prior. You can’t just ignore that and expect anyone to think you’re discussing the issue in good faith.
Speaking of which, Palestine under Ottoman rule was more peaceful. The wiki articles you linked don’t even reference massacres happening in Palestine. So your point is moot.
Yes they do…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Safed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1660_destruction_of_Tiberias
The British didn’t start this shit. Not even close.
Who started it is moot though, neither side wants to peacefully end this so they’re going to keep fighting.
You think that if the west stops supporting Israel that Hamas is just going to stop attacking? That’s naïve as fuck. Hamas with Iran’s support will just push into Israel and the table will just be tilted the other way instead.
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The plan is for there to eventually be no people left to become terrorists. It’s not the stupidest plan, it has worked throughout history.
They are on the path of doing this, the more they kill, the more will join the resistance. New acts of resistance (terrorism) will be committed. Then they have an excuse to kill even more. Rinse and repeat, until genocide complete.
This isn’t exactly an answer for how it could have been handled, but it’s got a lot of great info on the complicated factors at play.
Causes of the war https://youtu.be/zMxHU34IgyY
Israel’s reaction/overreaction https://youtu.be/B4H95DlII2s
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Get a peace-keeping force made up of Iranians. If missiles are still being shot from Gaza after that, Israel can go to war with Iran and cut out the middle-man.
For those who haven’t seen it yet, here’s a short video on the history of the conflict:
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Killing is bad
And so are megathreads.
Why?
I just prefer a more organic posting environment. Megathreads seem like a mod power-move to corral everyone into their threads and delete user posts.
Because when they’re arguing in mega threads, IDF propagandists can’t 404 the post when you checkmate their bullshit. They can’t be as unhinged as they’d like to be.
Megathreads are usually the justification for deleting other threads. So your theory is close, but just the opposite.
I’ll just say it.
The state of Israel is basically the modern Nazi Germany.
I want Israel to exist, but not by genociding an entire ethnic group from the land. This is fucked up, and fuck anyone defending these actions.
Published by the IDF about six hours ago on YouTube: Inside a Hamas Terrorist Tunnel Under Rantisi Hospital in Gaza
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