The NYPD is skulking through the L train demanding IDs from Black and Latino men, again with zero justified cause or explanation as to why.
Bad policing is bad for good cops.
There are no good cops.
Well good thing there are no good cops 🅰️©️🆎
Yeah woukd suck for them if there were. I bet they woukd stop being cops immediately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
Not exactly a new thing.
“Resonable Suspicion” is a lower threshold than “Probable Cause”.
I’m no expert on American law but I’m pretty sure you don’t have to show ID unless you’re given a good explanation for it.
ACAB
So the 4th amendment of the US Constitution, which outlines the freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, protects people from being forced to verbally identify or show documents of identification without reasonable cause, among other things. What that has been interpreted to mean by the SCOTUS is that, while they can always request ID without it being a lawful order, a request you can deny without consequence, any policy or state/local ID law that requires identification upon officer request without any other reasonable cause is unlawful. In other words they cannot demand id for no actual reason nor punish you for failing to ID without said reason.
At minimum, they need “reasonable and articulable suspicion” of a real crime that has happened, is happening, or is about to happen, in order to legally require you to ID yourself in every state, district, and city in the country (with the exception of if you are driving a car and get pulled over for a lawful infraction, you must provide your license to prove you’re allowed to drive the vehicle). “Reasonable and articulable suspicion” means that there are real facts that can be pointed to that a reasonable person would deem as a likely indication of crime, not hunches or racial profiling. Some states have higher levels of requirements in order to ID someone, but none can have lower requirements.
BUT, the unfortunate and infuriating truth is that they do not need to actually explain their reasonable and articulate suspicion to you at the time, which ultimately means that they dont have to have it until they justify it to the court much later. They could be just demanding it for no reason unlawfully. Or they could be demanding it because they just saw you pick pocket someone, or someone pointed you out as someone that threatened them, or you match the description of the person that just broke a bunch of windows nearby. All of those things qualify at reasonable suspicion allowing them to ID you in places where that is the minimum requirement. Even if you did nothing wrong, you could still match a description but aren’t the right guy, or they thought that saw you do something unlawful but were actually mistaken. It doesn’t matter. They still have reasonable suspicion unless you somehow factually dispel that suspicion. If you do not dispel that suspicion (maybe because they didn’t even explain their reasons in the first place) and they demand ID, you can be lawfully required to present it even if you did absolutely nothing wrong and don’t have a clue why they are asking at all.
In other words, if they demand ID and don’t explain why, there’s functionally way to discern at the time if the demand is lawful or unlawful even if you have committed no crimes. So you either comply or go to jail and argue your case in court later, regardless of the truth. And btw, even if they had absolutely no reasonable suspicion to lawfully demand ID at the time, they can just lie to justify it. If the lie is not demonstrably shown to be a lie by other evidence, it’s assumed to be true. So… enjoy your “freedoms”, I guess.
Or a man with a gun kidnaps you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
“Reasonable Suspicion” is very vague btw.
I think it depends on the state? But from what I know in at least some states you don’t have to do so unless there’s reasonable suspicion of some crime having been committed. IANAL.
As another said, reasonable and articulable suspicion is required to id in every state and city in the country regardless of any lower laws or department policies. However(!), they do not have to share that reasonable suspicion with you at all, and can still demand ID without giving it to you. They can have reasonable suspicion against you that you are not aware of, such as matching a description for a crime you’re not involved in. And They could very well have no reasonable suspicion and can lie in the report later if they need to justify it. So long as there isn’t evidence contradicting them, the cop’s word is assumed as fact. So a demand for ID that is lawful is indistinguishable from an unlawful one if they don’t give you the details of their suspicion because you have no way to know if such reason exists or if it’s reasonable or not.
Just FYI to anyone who is reading this thread: In ALL states, even the ones with stop and ID laws, the cops have to have reasonable, articulable suspicion that you have committed, are commiting, or are about to commit a crime. 4th amendment right, also lots of case law.
True, but they do not need to articulate their suspicion to you. The only person that they need to convince that they did have reasonable articulable suspicion prior to detaining you is the judge.
The system is set up much more in favor of the cops than for you.
deleted by creator
Winning lottery ticket?
Not anymore.
It looks like they were expecting them.
Are they still alive? Serious question
Jackboot gestapo fucks
Gaspacho* 😌
“Aren’t you a little short for a stormtrooper?”
Reminder that there legally cannot be a crime such as “failure to provide identification” outside of specific contexts like actively operating a vehicle, etc. Lots of states allow cops to require you to provide your legal name (and sometimes address) when detained, and courts usually have the ability to compell the same.
Yeah actual laws as written don’t matter.
This is fascism; the cop regime. They dont know or care about the laws, everything is vibes, and courts up to and especially the supreme will back them on this.
In England, it’s necessary to provide name and address when arrested, but, it’s illegal for the police to arrest just to find out your name. But of course, how difficult is it for them to make up some asinine BS excuse?
“I smell weed” has been a classic for decades.
A long while back, I was harassed by the cops for “acting suspicious” while waiting for some friends at the mall. This quickly escalated to “suspected terrorist activity” for absolutely no reason I could discern or anyone afterwards could explain.
Cops just say shit. The best you can do is say you need to speak to a lawyer and clam up after that.
I had the cops try to pin a bunch of crimes on me and a few coworkers once. Thought my life was over for a few days because they were very serious allegations. Fortunately their police report was so ridiculous as soon as someone competent got involved the whole thing was immediately dropped. The claims they made had literally no evidence and multiple witnesses could prove they were lying. Cops 100% will say anything, it makes their job easier and there’s no consequences.
If a cop says the sky is blue, maybe check.
A guy I knew was on probation and would be visited by cops on a regular basis. During one of the visits, one of his roommates was on his computer doing some programming. The cop looked angry and asked him “are you hacking?”
Bruh…
To be honest, that’s probably a question he has to ask.
When I was on probation I had a ton of random things I wasn’t allowed to do including any crime on a computer. But since I work in IT a lot of my job “looks” like hacking so I had to get a letter from my boss basically saying “he is not hacking at work”
‘Doing things i don’t understand’ is hacking.
I got questioned by the police when waiting for the train in New York (state) once. I’m a white guy, though I had really long hair at the time. They came up and said someone had reported someone suspicious. I was like, well, I’m waiting for the train and my friends. They were like someone saw you looking in that car suspiciously. I said, that’s my car. They asked if I had proof so I opened the door with the key.
Then my friend and her shitty little brother showed up. The brother yells “YO YOU GOT MY WEED??”
Luckily the cops realized that was an idiot 13 year old white kid, and they left.
Luckily the cops realized that was an idiot 13 year old white kidLuckily you were white. If you’d been anything else they would’ve been all over the car, maybe even planted something, and been like “well, we had to take the kid seriously just in case”.
Sounds about white.
If lots of states allow cops to require you to provide your name and you don’t, isn’t that refusal to comply with a lawful order, and thus a crime?
Failure to id is a secondary crime, you first need to be lawfully detained/lawfully suspected of a crime, before id can be demanded in 24 states. In the remaining states you need to be arrested before id can be demanded. Driving a motor vehicle is different though. As long as an officer had a reasonable reason for pulling you over, they can id you even if you dispell their suspicions prior to providing ID. If you’re pulled over, it’s best to always provide ID.
So it’s only a lawful order if the police follow the law, if they just walk down the street randomly asking people for id, then failure to comply with their unlawful demands can be thrown out by the courts. Of course the police can just lie and make up a reason they suspected you of a crime, which is why some states have made things like “smelling marijuana” not enough on it’s own.
The driver can be IDed while driving, but no one else is obligated to provide proof of ID as they are not lawfully nor unlawfully operating a motor vehicle.
Good point to clarify.
Thanks for the extra info, I’m not from the US so I was going just from the information provided by the comment above.
Sure, but if they demand your name, you tell them your name, they can’t then demand your ID to prove it
Well played by these two bros.
Making them waste time and resources with nothing to show for it, plus standing up for those who can’t. Respect.
This is it honestly. When people slow down police/ICE, it creates a distraction.
When they’re arresting grandmas and choking old people, causing a scene changes their focus and lets those people leave unharmed.
Bastards in blue doing what they do
If Zohran becomes mayor, can he potentially change anything about how the NYPD does things?
Considering a lot of the NYPD straight up said they’d resign if he became mayor, I think he’s got a pretty good chance of bringing change if he really wants to
They said the same thing in my city.
Then they stopped patrolling/enforcing anything.
And surprise surprise, violent crime actually went down.
Now they go around harassing homeless people because they don’t have anything else to do.
Give it to NYPD for threatening us all with a good time.
That’s one way to dispose of all those bad apples
They are lying to influence the election
Police? LYING?!
They are
lyingthreatening to influence the electionHey whats the word for that?
No… Would people do that? Lie to further their agenda?
Hey. If pigs are gonna throw their weight in behind a good cause, I say we take it! You can’t expect them to reform on their first day as socialists (/j I get what you’re saying)
Oh no how unfortunate.
Wow, they are just giving him free advertising at this point.
Ny is just full on police state. They need every single cop swapped
The department is administered and governed by the police commissioner, who is appointed by the mayor to what is, nominally, a five year term.
Can Zohran fire the existing commissioner and replace him? Idk what the bureaucracy around that looks like. Entrenched power structures have a way of slow rolling executives thru don’t like and ignoring rules they don’t want to follow.
A lot of levers of power that worked for a Guliani or an Adams might suddenly stop working assuming Zohran can make it all the way through the general and into office.
as far as i am aware, the mayor is the commander in chief of local police and also determines their budget
If I was mayor of NYC, I would eliminate the budget to all existing departments, then create new departments with a fresh budget. The initial budget is for importing officers and administrators from Europe, sourced from nations that put them through a rigorous training academy that emphasizes deescalation and following laws. No existing personnel from the ranks of America’s police would ever be hired.
Far as I am concerned, the police in America are a mafia, not keepers of peace. They have to be rooted out completely, if that is to change.
They own the law though, so no lawful process can oppose them meaningfully.
Im afraid they have takrn all the peaceful options, unless you consider ‘be crushed and die by the millions’ peaceful, off the fucking table.
The potential is there, but usually winning one election is not enough to actually achieve structural change such as stopping racist police actions.
They’re doing it to get them extraordinarily renditioned.
extraordinarily renditionedWay too sanitized of a term, when what it really means is ‘kidnapped’.
Kidnapping doesn’t necessarily involve torture.
All the more reason not to use the state’s sanitized language around torture and kidnapping.
Is there an ordinary rendition?
Would someone care to explain why would they not show their ID? Is it better to get detained than showing your ID, unless you have something to hide?
Anyway, in my country we are required by law to show police officers our IDs when asked.As an individual, its probably easier to just show ID, but as a society its a bad idea to let this become the norm. Because the next step is just checkpoints.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_checkpoint#Military_use
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_checkpoint
Very authoritarian. You shouldn’t have to justify your existence, the government should be the ones with the burden to prove you did something wrong, you shouldn’t need to prove your innocence.
…it soon became evident that this net was cast too wide for any private agency. Not merely was my own mail opened, but the mail of all my relatives and friends—people residing in places as far apart as California and Florida. I recall the bland smile of a government official to whom I complained about this matter: “If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.”
When assessing the degree and quality of liberty in a country, one of the factors considered in academic political science is the requirement of personal identification by law enforcement. It use to be a trope of Hollywood cinema that takes place in the Eastern Bloc (Warsaw Pact countries) that ordinary citizens and abvious tourists were routinely harassed by law enforcement for their papers, a stark reminder that here in the states you can even cross state lines without identifying yourself.
It’s getting more interesting as law enforcement is pre-emptively collecting biometric data on school kids and other vulnerable demographics.
Currently wending through state courts is the controversy of using biometric data to identify suspects, which may be regarded as an [unreasonable] search from which we (all, citizens or otherwise) are supposed to be protected, according to the fourth amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
In this specific incident, the NYPD is notoriously racist and aggressive, so this may be contempt of cop while black As the adage goes, you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride. This assures these young men will have a bad week regardless of their guilt of any wrongdoing.
They know they’re being racially profiled and didn’t feel like playing along and making life easier for the cops.
It’s literally a fourth amendment right. I’m not cool with any of my rights being infringed upon. No one should be ok with this.
As I said, I’m not from America, I wouldn’t know your laws, that’s why I’m asking
Are you required to always carry ID in your country?
Yep
What country do you live in?
Dumb question because we don’t know these men and we can’t answer for them. If you’re really interested, look up the case and see if there’s any news, they may have told their stories by now.
As others have said we are not required to provide ID unless there is a cause. Stopping 2 people without stating why means no cause and they have the right to say no and it should end with ok have a nice day, but our rights are tested more and more. Some good news is its generally an easy case for a lawyer to pickup and win meaning they could get a payout from the city. The sad news is generally nothing will be done about the cops who abuse their job and cause the tax payers more money in lawsuits that should never happen.
We are not. And I can describe having a spine for you, but I can’t have a spine for you.
Why do you assume I don’t have it?
Because of the bootlicking statement you made.
Cops in America are not your friend. They have no duty protect nor serve the American people. Their job is to write tickets and make arrests, to help fuel the for-profit prison system and keep the money flowing. (Empty prisons don’t generate profit.)
Their second duty is to constantly harass people of color to make them feel unwelcome in the country. It starts with approaching brown people who have committed no crime and asking for ID. The goal is to be escalate things in hopes that the person they’re harassing will fight back, that way they have an excuse to charge them with assaulting an officer or interfering with police duties.
It’s sick, twisted, and fucked up, and the worst part about is is that over a 3rd of the United States voting population supports this behavior.
Because people want to be left alone without being harassed for no reason by dirty cops looking to increase their arrest stats and get more promotions.
It’s awful not being left alone. For example, I know someone on lemmy who was viewing this sublemmy, didn’t do anything, got banned, and was so upset he actually died. The point is, people should be able to be left alone and do what they fucking want people being assholes.
For example, I know someone on lemmy who was viewing this sublemmy, didn’t do anything, got banned, and was so upset he actually died.
I smell BS.
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Didn’t do anything, but got banned? Possible, but improbable.
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Got so upset by a ban on Lemmy that the person died? So close to impossible that I would call it impossible.
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